13 ms·

Living in Switzerland ruined me for America and its lousy work culture (2016)

128 points by deepaksurti 7y ago

kyledrake 7y ago
Sure, but it's also really expensive to live in Switzerland. Not factoring in the cost of living over there is pretty disingenuous. And it's going to be a serious project to get residency there if you're not a Swiss citizen. Edit: This is not an opinion, cost of living in Switzerland is highest in the world, twice as high as in the US. Even if you make twice as much money, you're basically making the same amount. And if food cost that much where I live, you're damn right I'm bringing a sandwich to the office. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jsp https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.js...
- llamataboot 7y ago
  It's okay, you can sub most any country in Europe in, and still end up with a much more sane work culture than the US.
  - mruts 7y ago
    Many people (including myself), don't want a laid back work culture. I want to kill myself for the firm, and work as hard as humanly possible. I think I just derive the most happiness from working (though I do like drinking as well). I know a lot of other people like this. Maybe you can call us brainwashed or whatever, but this is how myself and most of my co-workers are. I don't think it's an accident that America is the most rich and powerful country in the world. Or that American Tech dominant the world (except for China). It's because Americans have a protestant work ethic, they're willing to suffer and kill themselves for greatness. This of course isn't for everyone. But as a highly ambitious person who wants to win no matter the cost, I couldn't imagine ever working in Europe.
    - michaelt 7y ago
      What does your company do, and how do you contribute to it?
      - mruts 7y ago
        I live and work in Africa structuring and programming derivatives for a bank. The bank tries to make money and I try to make the bank money.
    - Tomte 7y ago
      > I don't think it's an accident that America is the most rich and powerful country in the world. Or that American Tech dominant the world (except for China) You were the winners of a World War that left your competitors in scorched ruins, while you hadn't suffered much physical damage. In the multi-stranded bundle of reasons for American dominance, this is the big one.
      - jpttsn 7y ago
        Why did they win the war?
        roystonvassey 7y ago
        Because of the Russians?
        moosey 7y ago
        I mean, it's not 100% true but the actions of Russia during WW2 make this pretty true, and the fact that it seems the US intentionally stayed out of the way to inflict as much damage on Soviet Russia as it could before we got involved. There is no situation where you look at the number of deaths in the war and judge their massive suffering of the Soviet people as anything other than key in the defeat of Nazi Germany. I'm not about to say that the non aggression pact wasn't a problem, but WW2 finds lots of organizations in the same boat that we can attack in the same way. It was an old system where bodies and land meant power, a system that is really dying.
- adamnemecek 7y ago
  The point isn't that all of america should move to Switzerland but that America can take some Swiss ideas and implement them here. In Switzerland, your neighborhood votes on whether you should become a citizen.
  - floaters 7y ago
    >In Switzerland, your neighborhood votes on whether you should become a citizen. I didn't know that. That's very cool. You're also the only person who's right about the point of the article. It seems like most people here didn't read it yet responded with half-cocked tribalism. That said implementation would be difficult. The youngest voting block would need to be inspired en masse to participate in local government. Municipal and County first, then State. That would be a realistic source of change. The current status quo has no incentive to implement changes like this. The other hurdle is that even at a local level America has a brand of corruption that blocks this sort of progress if it doesn't have enough popular momentum. It's not just political. It's related to taxes and how money is moved around and handled that the article hints at. For example, America has a lot of small businesses that sell many different things but their one real job is cleaning money. There's also the fact that historically American culture is more competitive and exclusive socially than places like Switzerland. Getting people here to work together and look beyond their differences for something that's just practical problem solving is easier said than done.
  - masonic 7y ago
    In Switzerland, your neighborhood votes on whether you should become a citizen. In the USA, you'd be vilified as a NIMBY for far less.
- geff82 7y ago
  The cost of living in relative terms, compared to average salaries, is actually rather low. Rents, food is all really expensive judging from the numbers, but you get to keep a larger amount. Switzlerland is expensive for tourists - but for citizens not so much.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - hollerith 7y ago
    So the starting salary for software developers in Switzerland is higher than that in the US?
    - geff82 7y ago
      I can not tell for the starter salary, but 100000-120000$ is rather the norm (say it was offered to me without any haggling) and contractors (short term employees) make around 150k-250k.
    - komali2 7y ago
      Reductionist question. If you're goal is to get someone to "admit" that a software engineer can get paid more in San Francisco than Switzerland, I guess you've won your argument. You can still tell yourself America is the Best Country in the World™. But as the article indicates, the net worth of the average Swiss is twice that of the average American. The Swiss have found a way to leverage a higher tax rate to less out of pocket cost for their citizens. So you get 20000$ more bucks a year as an American, and then you go ahead and spend it on health insurance or driving a car everywhere.
      - geff82 7y ago
        Besides San Francisco and New York I also think that the average software developer gets paid a lot more in Switzerland, especially tons more than in surrounding countries. The only caveat is that you are usually expected to speak German and/or french (there are jobs without that requirement, but one of those two languages will really make your life a lot easier).
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  >Not factoring in the cost of living over there is pretty disingenuous. A Vox article not showing the whole picture... you don’t say! ;)
- eps 7y ago
  US and Canadian citizens can get Permit C (unconditional residency permit) after 5 years on Permit B (employment-bound permit). Citizenship is 5 more years after that. For EU citizens I think it's even simpler. For all other countries it's 10+10 years.
  - Youden 7y ago
    > US and Canadian citizens can get Permit C (unconditional residency permit) after 5 years on Permit B (employment-bound permit). 5 years satisfies the time requirement for American and Canadian citizens (and certain other countries) but they still have to satify the other requirements, the most burdensome of which is learning the local language. In Zürich, you have to learn A2 level German specifically (which actually isn't too hard) but this varies by canton. > Citizenship is 5 more years after that. Mostly, just note that in addition, you have to have been living in the canton and commune in which you want to obtain citizenship for a certain amount of time. Also, integration is a requirement for citizenship. What this means varies by commune but the main thing is that you've learned an official language to a working level (B1 I think). > For all other countries it's 10+10 years. As a third country national you can obtain a residence permit (C) within 5 years by integration. Integration mainly means learning the local language to a particular level, which varies by canton (in Zürich it's B1 German). I believe time spent living on a B permit counts towards citizenship so you can do it in 5+5 no matter where you're from, just like the US.
  - ScottFree 7y ago
    In theory. I looked into emigrating to Switzerland a few years ago and I was told that getting a work permit was nearly impossible as a US citizen. Swiss companies have to prove that they can't find an EU passport holder with the expertise necessary for the job before they can hire an American or any other non-EU passport holder. Unless something has changed?
    - snovv_crash 7y ago
      What that really means is that they need to have a job ad open for 3 months that they didn't hire someone else into before they can justify hiring a non-EU citizen. It helps if you're doing something specialized or have some intersection of skills for the justification, but it isn't insurmountable, just hard enough so that they only get the people who really want it.
- kyleblarson 7y ago
  Well, this is a Vox article we're talking about.
- komali2 7y ago
  Correct, yet the average swiss citizen has twice has much net worth, so I guess the higher cost of living doesn't result in less money in their pocket.
  - kyledrake 7y ago
    I mean yeah, Switzerland is a great place to live if you're rich.
    - komali2 7y ago
      It's also a great place to live if you're not rich, because of their incredible welfare system compared to our own.
- runarberg 7y ago
  Anecdote. I came to America from Iceland two years ago and I would say: “It’s complicated”. When I arrived I received much higher salary combined with a lower cost of living, more cultural variety, etc. But at the same time I left behind 4 weeks of paid vacation, 9 months of maternity/paternity leave, free education, a public health insurance, etc.
- thefounder 7y ago
  If you are a EU citizen you have the same rights as a native swiss citizen so the path to citizenship(if you really want it) might be easier.
- Broken_Hippo 7y ago
  It is extremely difficult to calculate cost of living. Sure, I might pay more in VAT, but if I'm also not stressed out about paying high medical bills and getting, in general, more money, the higher cost of living isn't so bad. For that higher cost of living, you get real benefits and a real safety net. You get none of that in the US. You might actually lose benefits if you switch states, and even when you do gain it isn't generally because everyone gets those benefits, but simply that you get them from one particular company as long as you don't get sick and get fired.
- simonebrunozzi 7y ago
  The single metric of "cost of living by country" is misrepresenting reality in certain areas, let me tell you why. USA on average is cheaper than Switzerland, sure. You are correct on that front. But you never live "in a country", you live in a specific city! Try comparing Bay Area with Switzerland, or even better, San Francisco with Zurich, and you'll get a very different picture. Let's look at it quickly. One of the most important metrics to determine real cost of living is "Cost per square foot" (or square meter) to buy a house/apartment in the city center. San Francisco and Zurich are both at ~$1,200 per square foot [0], but San Francisco is more expensive on pretty much any other metric, and remember that home prices are affected (reduced) by a much higher property tax in San Francisco compared to Zurich. Renting a 1-bedroom in downtown SF is at ~$3,410, compared to a bit more than half (!) in Zurich at ~$1,790. [0]. In 2019, San Francisco displaced Zurich as the city with the highest salaries [1, page 8]. So, to summarize: San Francisco is actually more expensive than Zurich. [0]: https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Switzerland&city1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&city2=Zurich&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/compare_cities.js... [1]: https://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/RPS_EN-PROD/PROD0000000000494405.pdf https://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/RPS_EN-PROD/PROD000000000049...
deleted 7y ago
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S_A_P 7y ago
Transportation is the biggest difference between the us and a lot of the rest of the world. Switzerland is the size of a small New England state. Mass transit is a tough thing to scale. That said I’ve noticed that a lot of the jobs in the us that would be considered “glamorous” are by and large the lowest paying jobs with the longest hours. Looking past the status of a company and career and looking into the practical details of a job will make finding a fulfilling and well paying job easier. All in all I think the article is not really apples to apples but has some valid points.
- cpursley 7y ago
  > Mass transit is a tough thing to scale. Is it? Russia is the largest country on the planet and they have had mass transit figured out for nearly a century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_Russia
  - elamje 7y ago
    Have you been there? I really don’t think Russia has it figured out better than the US. Russia’s infrastructure is certainly not close to the level of Europe/Japan or China.
    - cpursley 7y ago
      > Have you been there? I really don’t think Russia has it figured out better than the US. Yes, I live here. Russian transportation absolutely blows anything in the US away, and I've traveled extensively in both countries. Transportation is embarrassing and frustrating for me when I come back to the US. The US is absolutely car-dependent. Russia has everything from Rail transport (trans-Siberian, etc), city subways (Moscow subway just built a bunch of new lines including a second ring), trams, electric buses, bus systems, marshrutka mini buses, very cheap taxis (uber & yandex). https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Moscow_metro_ring_railway_map_en_sb_future.svg/1000px-Moscow_metro_ring_railway_map_en_sb_future.svg.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Mo... > Russia’s infrastructure is certainly not close to the level of Europe/Japan or China. Fair enough, but their low tech solutions are cost effective and solve the problem. https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2018/07/20/moscow-public-transit-ranks-worlds-most-efficient-a62287 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2018/07/20/moscow-public-tran...
Reedx 7y ago
Is Switzerland producing anything like SpaceX? Or Google? Or Apple, Amazon, Netflix, Tesla, Stripe, Y Combinator? More importantly, would we have produced these with their system? If so, then great, but let's see the evidence. No problem to have a work culture preference, and things could definitely be improved(!!), but I think we're kidding ourselves that there are no tradeoffs and everything would simply be better. And that we'd still have the same rate of innovation. Also a lot of people like that stores are open on Sundays.
- JBorrow 7y ago
  The US has a population 40 times higher, that's not really a fair comparison. Also: Nestle, Logitech? Just because they don't have shiny frontmen doesn't mean they aren't worthy. Google also has a large AI research department in Switzerland.
  - SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
    Switzerland is the population of New Jersey over twice the size. It’s crazy how people don’t have any sense of scale on these things.
  - masonic 7y ago
    You might want to bear Nestle's corporate ethics in mind before touting them as something to be proud of.
    - JBorrow 7y ago
      Ah yes, Google and SpaceX are well known for their impeccable corporate ethics
- jpttsn 7y ago
  Switzerland is home to many successful businesses and products.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  So what? How does the average American profit from their existence on their daily lives?
x38iq84n 7y ago
How I moved to another country, used its health and social insurance to achieve a positive balance. Then I shame someone who paid $3M in income tax on their not-so-risk-free income that could turn from $21M to $-21M very quickly. Really?
- adamnemecek 7y ago
  It's not as risky as it might seem.
- komali2 7y ago
  Do you genuinely believe that mitt Romney is at risk for wealth annihilation?
cpursley 7y ago
> America is the most rich and powerful country in the world Source needed.
- ta0987 7y ago
  Here's one for "powerful": http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yVGNoT30TM4/U4MWoLUx2MI/AAAAAAAAINs/0mEIBFRRHPw/s1600/aircraft-carriers_world.png http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yVGNoT30TM4/U4MWoLUx2MI/AAAAAAAAIN...
- fastball 7y ago
  Highest GDP + most powerful military doesn't cut it for you?
  - F_r_k 7y ago
    Who care about military ? So you can launch some rockets and kill each other ? Lame.. Some of the American people can't even go to the hospital..
    - fastball 7y ago
      Military is generally how most people qualify the power of a nation (what we're discussing). I've never heard anyone try to measure "power" as "how many people can pay their hospital bills", but nice non sequitur. And that is me being generous with what you said. Literally every American can go to a hospital (of which there are very many) whenever they want. The debt they will incur from such a visit is where the controversy lies. But back to measuring "power" with medical coverage: do you seriously consider Singapore to be more powerful than China? Because per capita, Singaporeans get better medical care than Chinese. Sounds like you want to measure "individual prosperity" or something, but I'm afraid that isn't what was said. This sub-thread is about whether the US as a nation is the wealthiest (check) and the most powerful (check).
    - hollerith 7y ago
      If the country your family and all your friends are living in ever gets bombed or invaded, you will care about military.
jjcm 7y ago
I've experienced a lot of these things since leaving the bay area and moving to Australia. The thing that surprised me most was similar to point #3 - in Australia the less fortunate are taken care of. One big mental drain I had in America was when my friends were sick but could do nothing about it. I had a roommate in Seattle who had severe dental problems and chronic tooth pain, but could do nothing about it because he simply couldn't afford it. I had another friend who had an oblique fracture in their arm, but set it themselves and never went to the doctor. All because healthcare was not only expensive, but randomly expensive. You never knew if you'd be leaving the hospital with a $100 medical bill or a $10,000 medical bill. I had great healthcare for all of my working career, but my friends often didn't, and it ate at me mentally. In Australia that's never been a point of stress. If you have a cold, you go to the doctor, and you always knew it'd be less than $200ish. There were no orders of magnitude more expensive surprises. The rest of the points resonated highly with me as well, as aside from the maternity leave I've experienced them all. I have to move back to the Bay soon and I'm not looking forward to it. Every time I visit there's more homeless who've been pushed to the streets because the system in place simply doesn't work - Nordic countries, Switzerland, and Australia are simply better in so many aspects. There's a reason why the USA has fallen to #13 in HDI[1] and continues to fall. The people of the USA have too much pride to change - we've been on top for so long that we often think we can't learn from other countries, and that we have everything figured out. The intro speech Jeff Daniels did in Newsroom [2] resonates here. It's time we looked at what policies actually work for the best of the populous. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Dev... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyzDRc34l2g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyzDRc34l2g
- ryanackley 7y ago
  Same experience and background as you. I worked for Atlassian in Sydney from 2008-2013. I found Australia to be a relative Utopia compared to the USA. After traveling around to other countries and living in Australia, then coming home, I realized that America is one of the most indoctrinated cultures I've experienced. We're indoctrinated with the idea of our own superiority. We can't see how much better other countries are doing modern life.
falsedan 7y ago
I recently moved from working for a US company to working for a CH one. There’s some disadvantages, like people not giving their all at work slowing things down. Compared to the previous role, it’s glacial. But no on call, 6 weeks vacation, and 8% pension contribution from the company that I don’t even have to match is a good trade-off. Work is always going to be frustrating, but I’m at a point in my life that I’d rather be frustrated at being forced to work a maximum of 37.5 hours per week (tracked with timesheets) than frustrated at unrealistic deadlines and the cult of appearing to get things done.
- markbnj 7y ago
  > There’s some disadvantages, like people not giving their all at work slowing things down. Compared to the previous role, it’s glacial. Maybe they've figured out that getting work done as fast as possible isn't the end goal of all human existence.
- H8crilA 7y ago
  What's the deal with people putting 120% efforts at work. It's clear that this is not necessary (for example - Switzerland is just fine). Put a steady 60-80% and bump it up to 100% when things get rough. I truly don't get it, sometimes it feels like people simply want to spend lives at work rather than do something else.
  - chrisseaton 7y ago
    Why do so many technology breakthroughs and successful companies get founded in the US, compared to Europe, then? Why do so many Europeans go off to work for US companies? There must be something beneficial about the US approach.
    - H8crilA 7y ago
      Sure, agreed. But I mean why would you, or me, or any other particular person do that? Confession on the topic: I feel guilty investing in US equity markets, earning hard bucks on the backs of people that put 120% labor efforts instead of enjoying their lives.
baby 7y ago
I personally find Switzerland boring and expensive. And I'm not sure your work culture is going to be that different if you work at Google or another tech company. If I go back to Europe I would go to Portugal or Italy or Spain. These countries are laid back, cheap, have good weather and good food. What else do you want? London and some cities in France like Bordeaux or Montpellier are insanely fun too.
- fileeditview 7y ago
  If you can find a job there with a good salary then that's probably not a bad choice. It will however be harder than finding one in Switzerland (or Germany).
- kartan 7y ago
  > These countries are laid back Have you worked in Italy or Spain? I'm Spanish and laid back at work is not a thing. The main reason I moved to Sweden is for is better work life balance. Never go to live where you go for vacations, you will be very disappointed.
  - baby 7y ago
    No but have many friends there. It depends if you're in the north or the south. Same with Italy.
    - kartan 7y ago
      > It depends if you're in the north or the south As most work is located in the big cities (Madrid, Barcelona, etc.) that is what most people will experience. But, the South or even the countryside is quite different. I agree with you.
  - rendall 7y ago
    @kartan, are siestas still a thing in Spain? I always imagined workers in Spain roll into work around 10, work till 2, then a 2-hour break, and then go home around 6. I guess that's wrong?
Aaronmacaron 7y ago
Previous HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987816 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987816
eternalny1 7y ago
My father worked for decades for a Fortune 100 company in the US as a manager and then worked in Switzerland for a few years. In both scenarios, he had a comfortable life. The US company provided great benefits, a pension, good work hours, and the job in Switzerland was even better. When I discuss what it's like to work in the technology sector, he doesn't understand it. 1099 contract work with extremely expensive health coverage? I should get a job that provides benefits! Daily long hours or death marches? I need to find a company that provides a better "work/life" balance. Start-ups that don't pay you now but "you have a chance at equity"? I should find one that succeeds. I'll keep trying.
- bhaak 7y ago
  Are you keep trying because you hope for striking gold sometime or because you can't find a job that resembles the jobs your father worked?
saxonww 7y ago
Some prior discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9924166 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9924166 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987816 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987816 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13303544 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13303544 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13482285 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13482285 This is actually a 2015 article, not 2016.
jjuhl 7y ago
So the USA is fucked up when it comes to work/life balance and the US has no social system worth anything. Who knew? Well, we all knew. The US has been the laughing stock of the world for decades and the only ones who haven't noticed are the americans. No news here.
- komali2 7y ago
  But what shall we do? Not continue to spread the word to our fellow Americans that things can be better? I'm privileged enough to have had opportunities to see how the rest of the world manages societal and economic systems. They do it better. Before I saw for myself, I simply wasn't aware. The American way was The Way. All it took was for me to see for myself how much better it could be to turn me into an activist to make it better here. I want to spread that message to as many people as possible so we can all try to make America better.
  - jjuhl 7y ago
    The US is a lost cause. Just do yourself a favour and get out, sooner rather than later.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
- Reedx 7y ago
  > The US has been the laughing stock of the world for decades and the only ones who haven't noticed are the americans. Right, it's not like the world has benefited at all from modern innovations from the US. Like the Internet or the US' contributions to medical science and technology or humanitarian efforts. And why they're not using Google, iPhones or Android devices, watching American movies, etc. Also please explain why so many have bothered to immigrate to the US in a bid to improve their lives? You think they moved to the laughing stock when they were already in a better situation? Your claim is insulting to American immigrants. It's also worth noting that over half of unicorn startups and Fortune 500 have immigrant founders. The system is working better than most and has helped the entire world in concrete ways. Does it have flaws? Absolutely. Huge flaws. But let's aim to improve it, not throw the baby out with the bath water.
perfunctory 7y ago
On top of that Switzerland has one-third of the US's GHG emissions per capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhouse_gas_emissions_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhous...
red_admiral 7y ago
There's a lot to like here, but > The Swiss have a culture of professional part-time work ... Coincidentally, this is the very day that one of the top stories on Swiss broadsheet Tages Anzeiger is about how more people would like to work part-time, but can't because of family commitments: https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/sonntagszeitung/nur-8-prozent-der-eltern-wollen-vollzeit-arbeiten/story/11662472 https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/sonntagszeitung/nur-8-prozent-d... EDIT: to quote for example "Rund drei Viertel der Eltern mit Vollzeitjob geben das höhere Einkommen als wichtigen Grund für ihr Arbeitspensum an." Three quarters of parents with full-time jobs said the higher income was an important reason for their full-time work. Later on it discusses the cost of living and of childcare for a family. EDIT2: I don't know if it's deliberate that Vox put a video of "Why we should all move to SWEDEN" at the bottom, but I certainly chuckled.
- erikpukinskis 7y ago
  That seems fine to me? The point of part time work is that you can choose between money or time. In the US there is no choice, generally speaking, as a coder. You can get $120k for 40 hours, but there aren’t many $60k for 20 hours jobs available. You have to freelance basically which is 3 years up front hustle.
mguerville 7y ago
I moved to the US (from France), 15 years ago, I think I made the right choice for a 21 year old in 2004. But today I wouldn't recommend it, by virtually every metric except economic growth, and by most intangibles, I feel that the US had not improved enough and even in many cases declined. The state of education, infrastructure, healthcare, inequality, population health, etc. are worrying. 15 years ago it was a no brainer for most people to consider the US as a career and life option, nowadays I think it's only the case for a certain type of people.

128 points by deepaksurti 7y ago

Sure, but it's also really expensive to live in Switzerland. Not factoring in the cost of living over there is pretty disingenuous. And it's going to be a serious project to get residency there if you're not a Swiss citizen. Edit: This is not an opinion, cost of living in Switzerland is highest in the world, twice as high as in the US. Even if you make twice as much money, you're basically making the same amount. And if food cost that much where I live, you're damn right I'm bringing a sandwich to the office. https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.jsp https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/rankings_by_country.js...

llamataboot 7y ago
It's okay, you can sub most any country in Europe in, and still end up with a much more sane work culture than the US.
- mruts 7y ago
  Many people (including myself), don't want a laid back work culture. I want to kill myself for the firm, and work as hard as humanly possible. I think I just derive the most happiness from working (though I do like drinking as well). I know a lot of other people like this. Maybe you can call us brainwashed or whatever, but this is how myself and most of my co-workers are. I don't think it's an accident that America is the most rich and powerful country in the world. Or that American Tech dominant the world (except for China). It's because Americans have a protestant work ethic, they're willing to suffer and kill themselves for greatness. This of course isn't for everyone. But as a highly ambitious person who wants to win no matter the cost, I couldn't imagine ever working in Europe.
  - michaelt 7y ago
    What does your company do, and how do you contribute to it?
    - mruts 7y ago
      I live and work in Africa structuring and programming derivatives for a bank. The bank tries to make money and I try to make the bank money.
  - Tomte 7y ago
    > I don't think it's an accident that America is the most rich and powerful country in the world. Or that American Tech dominant the world (except for China) You were the winners of a World War that left your competitors in scorched ruins, while you hadn't suffered much physical damage. In the multi-stranded bundle of reasons for American dominance, this is the big one.
    - jpttsn 7y ago
      Why did they win the war?
      - roystonvassey 7y ago
        Because of the Russians?
        moosey 7y ago
        I mean, it's not 100% true but the actions of Russia during WW2 make this pretty true, and the fact that it seems the US intentionally stayed out of the way to inflict as much damage on Soviet Russia as it could before we got involved. There is no situation where you look at the number of deaths in the war and judge their massive suffering of the Soviet people as anything other than key in the defeat of Nazi Germany. I'm not about to say that the non aggression pact wasn't a problem, but WW2 finds lots of organizations in the same boat that we can attack in the same way. It was an old system where bodies and land meant power, a system that is really dying.
adamnemecek 7y ago
The point isn't that all of america should move to Switzerland but that America can take some Swiss ideas and implement them here. In Switzerland, your neighborhood votes on whether you should become a citizen.
- floaters 7y ago
  >In Switzerland, your neighborhood votes on whether you should become a citizen. I didn't know that. That's very cool. You're also the only person who's right about the point of the article. It seems like most people here didn't read it yet responded with half-cocked tribalism. That said implementation would be difficult. The youngest voting block would need to be inspired en masse to participate in local government. Municipal and County first, then State. That would be a realistic source of change. The current status quo has no incentive to implement changes like this. The other hurdle is that even at a local level America has a brand of corruption that blocks this sort of progress if it doesn't have enough popular momentum. It's not just political. It's related to taxes and how money is moved around and handled that the article hints at. For example, America has a lot of small businesses that sell many different things but their one real job is cleaning money. There's also the fact that historically American culture is more competitive and exclusive socially than places like Switzerland. Getting people here to work together and look beyond their differences for something that's just practical problem solving is easier said than done.
- masonic 7y ago
  In Switzerland, your neighborhood votes on whether you should become a citizen. In the USA, you'd be vilified as a NIMBY for far less.
geff82 7y ago
The cost of living in relative terms, compared to average salaries, is actually rather low. Rents, food is all really expensive judging from the numbers, but you get to keep a larger amount. Switzlerland is expensive for tourists - but for citizens not so much.
- deleted 7y ago
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- hollerith 7y ago
  So the starting salary for software developers in Switzerland is higher than that in the US?
  - geff82 7y ago
    I can not tell for the starter salary, but 100000-120000$ is rather the norm (say it was offered to me without any haggling) and contractors (short term employees) make around 150k-250k.
  - komali2 7y ago
    Reductionist question. If you're goal is to get someone to "admit" that a software engineer can get paid more in San Francisco than Switzerland, I guess you've won your argument. You can still tell yourself America is the Best Country in the World™. But as the article indicates, the net worth of the average Swiss is twice that of the average American. The Swiss have found a way to leverage a higher tax rate to less out of pocket cost for their citizens. So you get 20000$ more bucks a year as an American, and then you go ahead and spend it on health insurance or driving a car everywhere.
    - geff82 7y ago
      Besides San Francisco and New York I also think that the average software developer gets paid a lot more in Switzerland, especially tons more than in surrounding countries. The only caveat is that you are usually expected to speak German and/or french (there are jobs without that requirement, but one of those two languages will really make your life a lot easier).
SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
>Not factoring in the cost of living over there is pretty disingenuous. A Vox article not showing the whole picture... you don’t say! ;)
eps 7y ago
US and Canadian citizens can get Permit C (unconditional residency permit) after 5 years on Permit B (employment-bound permit). Citizenship is 5 more years after that. For EU citizens I think it's even simpler. For all other countries it's 10+10 years.
- Youden 7y ago
  > US and Canadian citizens can get Permit C (unconditional residency permit) after 5 years on Permit B (employment-bound permit). 5 years satisfies the time requirement for American and Canadian citizens (and certain other countries) but they still have to satify the other requirements, the most burdensome of which is learning the local language. In Zürich, you have to learn A2 level German specifically (which actually isn't too hard) but this varies by canton. > Citizenship is 5 more years after that. Mostly, just note that in addition, you have to have been living in the canton and commune in which you want to obtain citizenship for a certain amount of time. Also, integration is a requirement for citizenship. What this means varies by commune but the main thing is that you've learned an official language to a working level (B1 I think). > For all other countries it's 10+10 years. As a third country national you can obtain a residence permit (C) within 5 years by integration. Integration mainly means learning the local language to a particular level, which varies by canton (in Zürich it's B1 German). I believe time spent living on a B permit counts towards citizenship so you can do it in 5+5 no matter where you're from, just like the US.
- ScottFree 7y ago
  In theory. I looked into emigrating to Switzerland a few years ago and I was told that getting a work permit was nearly impossible as a US citizen. Swiss companies have to prove that they can't find an EU passport holder with the expertise necessary for the job before they can hire an American or any other non-EU passport holder. Unless something has changed?
  - snovv_crash 7y ago
    What that really means is that they need to have a job ad open for 3 months that they didn't hire someone else into before they can justify hiring a non-EU citizen. It helps if you're doing something specialized or have some intersection of skills for the justification, but it isn't insurmountable, just hard enough so that they only get the people who really want it.
kyleblarson 7y ago
Well, this is a Vox article we're talking about.
komali2 7y ago
Correct, yet the average swiss citizen has twice has much net worth, so I guess the higher cost of living doesn't result in less money in their pocket.
- kyledrake 7y ago
  I mean yeah, Switzerland is a great place to live if you're rich.
  - komali2 7y ago
    It's also a great place to live if you're not rich, because of their incredible welfare system compared to our own.
runarberg 7y ago
Anecdote. I came to America from Iceland two years ago and I would say: “It’s complicated”. When I arrived I received much higher salary combined with a lower cost of living, more cultural variety, etc. But at the same time I left behind 4 weeks of paid vacation, 9 months of maternity/paternity leave, free education, a public health insurance, etc.
thefounder 7y ago
If you are a EU citizen you have the same rights as a native swiss citizen so the path to citizenship(if you really want it) might be easier.
Broken_Hippo 7y ago
It is extremely difficult to calculate cost of living. Sure, I might pay more in VAT, but if I'm also not stressed out about paying high medical bills and getting, in general, more money, the higher cost of living isn't so bad. For that higher cost of living, you get real benefits and a real safety net. You get none of that in the US. You might actually lose benefits if you switch states, and even when you do gain it isn't generally because everyone gets those benefits, but simply that you get them from one particular company as long as you don't get sick and get fired.
simonebrunozzi 7y ago
The single metric of "cost of living by country" is misrepresenting reality in certain areas, let me tell you why. USA on average is cheaper than Switzerland, sure. You are correct on that front. But you never live "in a country", you live in a specific city! Try comparing Bay Area with Switzerland, or even better, San Francisco with Zurich, and you'll get a very different picture. Let's look at it quickly. One of the most important metrics to determine real cost of living is "Cost per square foot" (or square meter) to buy a house/apartment in the city center. San Francisco and Zurich are both at ~$1,200 per square foot [0], but San Francisco is more expensive on pretty much any other metric, and remember that home prices are affected (reduced) by a much higher property tax in San Francisco compared to Zurich. Renting a 1-bedroom in downtown SF is at ~$3,410, compared to a bit more than half (!) in Zurich at ~$1,790. [0]. In 2019, San Francisco displaced Zurich as the city with the highest salaries [1, page 8]. So, to summarize: San Francisco is actually more expensive than Zurich. [0]: https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/compare_cities.jsp?country1=United+States&country2=Switzerland&city1=San+Francisco%2C+CA&city2=Zurich&tracking=getDispatchComparison https://www.numbeo.com/property-investment/compare_cities.js... [1]: https://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/RPS_EN-PROD/PROD0000000000494405.pdf https://www.dbresearch.com/PROD/RPS_EN-PROD/PROD000000000049...

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S_A_P 7y ago

Transportation is the biggest difference between the us and a lot of the rest of the world. Switzerland is the size of a small New England state. Mass transit is a tough thing to scale. That said I’ve noticed that a lot of the jobs in the us that would be considered “glamorous” are by and large the lowest paying jobs with the longest hours. Looking past the status of a company and career and looking into the practical details of a job will make finding a fulfilling and well paying job easier. All in all I think the article is not really apples to apples but has some valid points.

cpursley 7y ago
> Mass transit is a tough thing to scale. Is it? Russia is the largest country on the planet and they have had mass transit figured out for nearly a century. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_in_Russia
- elamje 7y ago
  Have you been there? I really don’t think Russia has it figured out better than the US. Russia’s infrastructure is certainly not close to the level of Europe/Japan or China.
  - cpursley 7y ago
    > Have you been there? I really don’t think Russia has it figured out better than the US. Yes, I live here. Russian transportation absolutely blows anything in the US away, and I've traveled extensively in both countries. Transportation is embarrassing and frustrating for me when I come back to the US. The US is absolutely car-dependent. Russia has everything from Rail transport (trans-Siberian, etc), city subways (Moscow subway just built a bunch of new lines including a second ring), trams, electric buses, bus systems, marshrutka mini buses, very cheap taxis (uber & yandex). https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Moscow_metro_ring_railway_map_en_sb_future.svg/1000px-Moscow_metro_ring_railway_map_en_sb_future.svg.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Mo... > Russia’s infrastructure is certainly not close to the level of Europe/Japan or China. Fair enough, but their low tech solutions are cost effective and solve the problem. https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2018/07/20/moscow-public-transit-ranks-worlds-most-efficient-a62287 https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2018/07/20/moscow-public-tran...

Reedx 7y ago

Is Switzerland producing anything like SpaceX? Or Google? Or Apple, Amazon, Netflix, Tesla, Stripe, Y Combinator? More importantly, would we have produced these with their system? If so, then great, but let's see the evidence. No problem to have a work culture preference, and things could definitely be improved(!!), but I think we're kidding ourselves that there are no tradeoffs and everything would simply be better. And that we'd still have the same rate of innovation. Also a lot of people like that stores are open on Sundays.

JBorrow 7y ago
The US has a population 40 times higher, that's not really a fair comparison. Also: Nestle, Logitech? Just because they don't have shiny frontmen doesn't mean they aren't worthy. Google also has a large AI research department in Switzerland.
- SlowRobotAhead 7y ago
  Switzerland is the population of New Jersey over twice the size. It’s crazy how people don’t have any sense of scale on these things.
- masonic 7y ago
  You might want to bear Nestle's corporate ethics in mind before touting them as something to be proud of.
  - JBorrow 7y ago
    Ah yes, Google and SpaceX are well known for their impeccable corporate ethics
jpttsn 7y ago
Switzerland is home to many successful businesses and products.
pjmlp 7y ago
So what? How does the average American profit from their existence on their daily lives?

x38iq84n 7y ago

How I moved to another country, used its health and social insurance to achieve a positive balance. Then I shame someone who paid $3M in income tax on their not-so-risk-free income that could turn from $21M to $-21M very quickly. Really?

adamnemecek 7y ago
It's not as risky as it might seem.
komali2 7y ago
Do you genuinely believe that mitt Romney is at risk for wealth annihilation?

cpursley 7y ago

> America is the most rich and powerful country in the world Source needed.

ta0987 7y ago
Here's one for "powerful": http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yVGNoT30TM4/U4MWoLUx2MI/AAAAAAAAINs/0mEIBFRRHPw/s1600/aircraft-carriers_world.png http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yVGNoT30TM4/U4MWoLUx2MI/AAAAAAAAIN...
fastball 7y ago
Highest GDP + most powerful military doesn't cut it for you?
- F_r_k 7y ago
  Who care about military ? So you can launch some rockets and kill each other ? Lame.. Some of the American people can't even go to the hospital..
  - fastball 7y ago
    Military is generally how most people qualify the power of a nation (what we're discussing). I've never heard anyone try to measure "power" as "how many people can pay their hospital bills", but nice non sequitur. And that is me being generous with what you said. Literally every American can go to a hospital (of which there are very many) whenever they want. The debt they will incur from such a visit is where the controversy lies. But back to measuring "power" with medical coverage: do you seriously consider Singapore to be more powerful than China? Because per capita, Singaporeans get better medical care than Chinese. Sounds like you want to measure "individual prosperity" or something, but I'm afraid that isn't what was said. This sub-thread is about whether the US as a nation is the wealthiest (check) and the most powerful (check).
  - hollerith 7y ago
    If the country your family and all your friends are living in ever gets bombed or invaded, you will care about military.

jjcm 7y ago

I've experienced a lot of these things since leaving the bay area and moving to Australia. The thing that surprised me most was similar to point #3 - in Australia the less fortunate are taken care of. One big mental drain I had in America was when my friends were sick but could do nothing about it. I had a roommate in Seattle who had severe dental problems and chronic tooth pain, but could do nothing about it because he simply couldn't afford it. I had another friend who had an oblique fracture in their arm, but set it themselves and never went to the doctor. All because healthcare was not only expensive, but randomly expensive. You never knew if you'd be leaving the hospital with a $100 medical bill or a $10,000 medical bill. I had great healthcare for all of my working career, but my friends often didn't, and it ate at me mentally. In Australia that's never been a point of stress. If you have a cold, you go to the doctor, and you always knew it'd be less than $200ish. There were no orders of magnitude more expensive surprises. The rest of the points resonated highly with me as well, as aside from the maternity leave I've experienced them all. I have to move back to the Bay soon and I'm not looking forward to it. Every time I visit there's more homeless who've been pushed to the streets because the system in place simply doesn't work - Nordic countries, Switzerland, and Australia are simply better in so many aspects. There's a reason why the USA has fallen to #13 in HDI[1] and continues to fall. The people of the USA have too much pride to change - we've been on top for so long that we often think we can't learn from other countries, and that we have everything figured out. The intro speech Jeff Daniels did in Newsroom [2] resonates here. It's time we looked at what policies actually work for the best of the populous. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Dev... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyzDRc34l2g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RyzDRc34l2g

ryanackley 7y ago
Same experience and background as you. I worked for Atlassian in Sydney from 2008-2013. I found Australia to be a relative Utopia compared to the USA. After traveling around to other countries and living in Australia, then coming home, I realized that America is one of the most indoctrinated cultures I've experienced. We're indoctrinated with the idea of our own superiority. We can't see how much better other countries are doing modern life.

falsedan 7y ago

I recently moved from working for a US company to working for a CH one. There’s some disadvantages, like people not giving their all at work slowing things down. Compared to the previous role, it’s glacial. But no on call, 6 weeks vacation, and 8% pension contribution from the company that I don’t even have to match is a good trade-off. Work is always going to be frustrating, but I’m at a point in my life that I’d rather be frustrated at being forced to work a maximum of 37.5 hours per week (tracked with timesheets) than frustrated at unrealistic deadlines and the cult of appearing to get things done.

markbnj 7y ago
> There’s some disadvantages, like people not giving their all at work slowing things down. Compared to the previous role, it’s glacial. Maybe they've figured out that getting work done as fast as possible isn't the end goal of all human existence.
H8crilA 7y ago
What's the deal with people putting 120% efforts at work. It's clear that this is not necessary (for example - Switzerland is just fine). Put a steady 60-80% and bump it up to 100% when things get rough. I truly don't get it, sometimes it feels like people simply want to spend lives at work rather than do something else.
- chrisseaton 7y ago
  Why do so many technology breakthroughs and successful companies get founded in the US, compared to Europe, then? Why do so many Europeans go off to work for US companies? There must be something beneficial about the US approach.
  - H8crilA 7y ago
    Sure, agreed. But I mean why would you, or me, or any other particular person do that? Confession on the topic: I feel guilty investing in US equity markets, earning hard bucks on the backs of people that put 120% labor efforts instead of enjoying their lives.

baby 7y ago

I personally find Switzerland boring and expensive. And I'm not sure your work culture is going to be that different if you work at Google or another tech company. If I go back to Europe I would go to Portugal or Italy or Spain. These countries are laid back, cheap, have good weather and good food. What else do you want? London and some cities in France like Bordeaux or Montpellier are insanely fun too.

fileeditview 7y ago
If you can find a job there with a good salary then that's probably not a bad choice. It will however be harder than finding one in Switzerland (or Germany).
kartan 7y ago
> These countries are laid back Have you worked in Italy or Spain? I'm Spanish and laid back at work is not a thing. The main reason I moved to Sweden is for is better work life balance. Never go to live where you go for vacations, you will be very disappointed.
- baby 7y ago
  No but have many friends there. It depends if you're in the north or the south. Same with Italy.
  - kartan 7y ago
    > It depends if you're in the north or the south As most work is located in the big cities (Madrid, Barcelona, etc.) that is what most people will experience. But, the South or even the countryside is quite different. I agree with you.
- rendall 7y ago
  @kartan, are siestas still a thing in Spain? I always imagined workers in Spain roll into work around 10, work till 2, then a 2-hour break, and then go home around 6. I guess that's wrong?

Aaronmacaron 7y ago

Previous HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987816 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987816

eternalny1 7y ago

My father worked for decades for a Fortune 100 company in the US as a manager and then worked in Switzerland for a few years. In both scenarios, he had a comfortable life. The US company provided great benefits, a pension, good work hours, and the job in Switzerland was even better. When I discuss what it's like to work in the technology sector, he doesn't understand it. 1099 contract work with extremely expensive health coverage? I should get a job that provides benefits! Daily long hours or death marches? I need to find a company that provides a better "work/life" balance. Start-ups that don't pay you now but "you have a chance at equity"? I should find one that succeeds. I'll keep trying.

bhaak 7y ago
Are you keep trying because you hope for striking gold sometime or because you can't find a job that resembles the jobs your father worked?

saxonww 7y ago

Some prior discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9924166 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9924166 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987816 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9987816 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13303544 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13303544 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13482285 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13482285 This is actually a 2015 article, not 2016.

jjuhl 7y ago

So the USA is fucked up when it comes to work/life balance and the US has no social system worth anything. Who knew? Well, we all knew. The US has been the laughing stock of the world for decades and the only ones who haven't noticed are the americans. No news here.

komali2 7y ago
But what shall we do? Not continue to spread the word to our fellow Americans that things can be better? I'm privileged enough to have had opportunities to see how the rest of the world manages societal and economic systems. They do it better. Before I saw for myself, I simply wasn't aware. The American way was The Way. All it took was for me to see for myself how much better it could be to turn me into an activist to make it better here. I want to spread that message to as many people as possible so we can all try to make America better.
- jjuhl 7y ago
  The US is a lost cause. Just do yourself a favour and get out, sooner rather than later.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
Reedx 7y ago
> The US has been the laughing stock of the world for decades and the only ones who haven't noticed are the americans. Right, it's not like the world has benefited at all from modern innovations from the US. Like the Internet or the US' contributions to medical science and technology or humanitarian efforts. And why they're not using Google, iPhones or Android devices, watching American movies, etc. Also please explain why so many have bothered to immigrate to the US in a bid to improve their lives? You think they moved to the laughing stock when they were already in a better situation? Your claim is insulting to American immigrants. It's also worth noting that over half of unicorn startups and Fortune 500 have immigrant founders. The system is working better than most and has helped the entire world in concrete ways. Does it have flaws? Absolutely. Huge flaws. But let's aim to improve it, not throw the baby out with the bath water.

perfunctory 7y ago

On top of that Switzerland has one-third of the US's GHG emissions per capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhouse_gas_emissions_per_capita https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_greenhous...

red_admiral 7y ago

There's a lot to like here, but > The Swiss have a culture of professional part-time work ... Coincidentally, this is the very day that one of the top stories on Swiss broadsheet Tages Anzeiger is about how more people would like to work part-time, but can't because of family commitments: https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/sonntagszeitung/nur-8-prozent-der-eltern-wollen-vollzeit-arbeiten/story/11662472 https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/sonntagszeitung/nur-8-prozent-d... EDIT: to quote for example "Rund drei Viertel der Eltern mit Vollzeitjob geben das höhere Einkommen als wichtigen Grund für ihr Arbeitspensum an." Three quarters of parents with full-time jobs said the higher income was an important reason for their full-time work. Later on it discusses the cost of living and of childcare for a family. EDIT2: I don't know if it's deliberate that Vox put a video of "Why we should all move to SWEDEN" at the bottom, but I certainly chuckled.

erikpukinskis 7y ago
That seems fine to me? The point of part time work is that you can choose between money or time. In the US there is no choice, generally speaking, as a coder. You can get $120k for 40 hours, but there aren’t many $60k for 20 hours jobs available. You have to freelance basically which is 3 years up front hustle.

mguerville 7y ago

I moved to the US (from France), 15 years ago, I think I made the right choice for a 21 year old in 2004. But today I wouldn't recommend it, by virtually every metric except economic growth, and by most intangibles, I feel that the US had not improved enough and even in many cases declined. The state of education, infrastructure, healthcare, inequality, population health, etc. are worrying. 15 years ago it was a no brainer for most people to consider the US as a career and life option, nowadays I think it's only the case for a certain type of people.