6 ms·

Thawing permafrost is destroying Arctic cities (2016)

128 points by perfunctory 7y ago

trhway 7y ago
>To avoid this, in the 1960s builders of apartment blocks in Norilsk began drilling holes up to 100-ft deep and pouring reinforced concrete piles that stuck into the permanently frozen soil below. 100ft would be enough for quite some time. From my short stints in the construction industry (specializing in foundations) in Siberia during college summers (“stroyotryad”) 30 years ago I don’t remember anything being done to the full specs and without cutting corners. Using full power of my imagination I still can’t picture somebody doing it 100ft there when 30ft would look the same :)
- asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
  The article seems to suggest as much -- the real issue is excess moisture causing re-frozen soil to expand more than it should, damaging the upper portions of the piles. I can hardly imagine that an extra two feet of thawing alone are affecting the stability of piles 100 feet deep.
cozzyd 7y ago
Hard to weep for the most polluted city in the world about this.
olivermarks 7y ago
2016 article, entertaining Guardian comment thread below
- dang 7y ago
  Ah thanks. Added above.
nn3 7y ago
While they will may have temporary problems in places I suspect Siberia will be a long term winner from climate change. All the people displaced from flooded coastal settlements have to move somewhere after all.
- brm 7y ago
  There aren’t going to be long term winners from climate change. They might be less affected but it’s not going to be good. New illnesses, food scarcity and other things will only make some places “winnings” a relative thing. Would you consider a tornado that levels your house a long term winner for your basement?
  - 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
    No, there are places that are borderline unhabitable now that will become more livable as the climate warms. Here's one study: http://blogs.cuit.columbia.edu/jmp2265/?page_id=48 http://blogs.cuit.columbia.edu/jmp2265/?page_id=48 As a tangible example, Greenland is now starting to be warm enough to grow potatoes: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6993612.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6993612.stm
    - crygin 7y ago
      They're not going to be so nice when they're at the other end of a four-billion-person refugee crisis in a few decades.
    - 2_listerine_pls 7y ago
      Isn't the methane release going to accelerate the warming exponentially to the point of mass-extintion? The so-called feedback effect. Permafrost is thawing 70 years before the simplistic models predicted: - https://www.livescience.com/65709-arctic-permafrost-melts-decades-early.html https://www.livescience.com/65709-arctic-permafrost-melts-de... - https://envisionation.co.uk/index.php/nick-breeze/203-subsea-permafrost-on-east-siberian-arctic-shelf-now-in-accelerated-decline https://envisionation.co.uk/index.php/nick-breeze/203-subsea... Also, there is Nitrous Oxide too, which will deplete the Ozone layer: - https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/06/harvard-chemist-permafrost-n2o-levels-12-times-higher-than-expected/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/06/harvard-chemi...
      - 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
m0zg 7y ago
The problem is as old as permafrost itself: I remember reading as a child about problems with permafrost stability (or rather lack thereof) when they were building БАМ (Baikal-Amur Mainline). They'd lay tracks only to watch them be torn by permafrost movement a year or two (or sometimes a month) later. Somehow they did figure out how to make things stable enough for the railway to be operational. It is currently being upgraded to double the capacity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baikal%E2%80%93Amur_Mainline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baikal%E2%80%93Amur_Mainline
- mempko 7y ago
  The problem is getting worse very fast. While the permafrost was always somewhat unstable , what is happening now is unprecedented.
akeck 7y ago
Apparently there's tech called a thermosyphon to keep permafrost under foundations frozen. https://mass.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/nvmms.sci.phys.permafrost/preserving-permafrost/ https://mass.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/nvmms.sci.phys.pe...
- Anthony-G 7y ago
  That's mentioned in the article, alright: > If temperature monitoring or visible deformations tip maintenance workers off in time, structures can be saved. Thermosyphons were installed to cool the soil under the apartment block at 36 Nansen Street when temperature probes showed warming there, for instance. > But sometimes changes come too suddenly. A brick office building on Komsomolskaya street cracked like an egg one September morning in 2009 and stands empty to this day. A top corner of the building pitched forward 70cm, sending jagged fissures up the middle of its facade and squashing windows.
- simonebrunozzi 7y ago
  Interestingly, "termosifone" is the Italian word for the cast-iron radiator, used to heat homes.
ageofwant 7y ago
All those ancient prions, viruses and bacteria that the world have not been exposed to for eons, now floating in the air and water, may very well be the best solution to the human overpopulation problem.
- rexpop 7y ago
  You're sick.
  - dang 7y ago
    Please don't respond to a bad comment with another bad comment. The site guidelines ask you not to: "Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead." Also, please restrain yourself from personal attack, regardless of how bad a comment is. Maybe you don't owe the person better, but you owe this community better if you want to keep posting here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- antonvs 7y ago
  It's very unlikely. This article goes into more detail: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/01/24/575974220/are-there-zombie-viruses-in-the-thawing-permafrost https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/01/24/5759742... The summary is that most of those viruses and bacteria are long dead, and in those cases where something was frozen recently enough to still be viable, you'd most likely need to go to extreme lengths - like "kneeling in defrosted marine mammal goo" - to get infected by it.
  - rolltiide 7y ago
    So like how Ebola spreads got it, not very improbable at all Dead viruses and bacteria are resurrected just be being exposed to a single live version of itself
    - antonvs 7y ago
      You'll notice there's not much Ebola in the world. Despite the sensationalist "Hot Zone" journalism around it, it's not a serious threat in first world countries. The reason is precisely because the precautions one needs to take to avoid it are just basic hygiene that we take for granted. > Dead viruses and bacteria are resurrected just be being exposed to a single live version of itself Did you read the article I linked? Perhaps you should have told that to the scientists who tried but failed to culture frozen organisms. If they can't culture it in a lab, then the chances of it reviving on its own in the wild are very low. I can't believe we're discussing a literal X-Files plot as though it's scientifically realistic.
aaron695 7y ago
Are we seriously trying to claim the people in this region are worse off? This Global Warming religion is far more nonsensical than the standard old school ones. I wonder if the Atheist groups realised this, that by destroying the standard religions, people would just move to others? To state the obvious, statements like this are more or less lies - "12-year-old boy in Salekhard died from anthrax in August after thawing released bacteria" https://www.wbur.org/npr/575974220/are-there-zombie-viruses-in-the-thawing-permafrost" https://www.wbur.org/npr/575974220/are-there-zombie-viruses-... But it's pointless fighting religions on their gospel I guess, people believe what they want to believe. GW will cause zombie viruses for the end of days, along with the earth catastrophically melting, floods and fire. (Earth, Air, Fire and Water)
edejong 7y ago
Yet another alarmist article stretching to find a relationship with our man-made climate change. It is sowing doubt instead. Press (especially the far-left Guardian) should think twice publishing this. There are much better indicators such as bleaching of corals and global satellite measurements.
pg_is_a_butt 7y ago
After the Arcticans can till their soil and grow crops, it won't be long until they are developing nuclear weapons.

128 points by perfunctory 7y ago

>To avoid this, in the 1960s builders of apartment blocks in Norilsk began drilling holes up to 100-ft deep and pouring reinforced concrete piles that stuck into the permanently frozen soil below. 100ft would be enough for quite some time. From my short stints in the construction industry (specializing in foundations) in Siberia during college summers (“stroyotryad”) 30 years ago I don’t remember anything being done to the full specs and without cutting corners. Using full power of my imagination I still can’t picture somebody doing it 100ft there when 30ft would look the same :)

asdfasgasdgasdg 7y ago
The article seems to suggest as much -- the real issue is excess moisture causing re-frozen soil to expand more than it should, damaging the upper portions of the piles. I can hardly imagine that an extra two feet of thawing alone are affecting the stability of piles 100 feet deep.

cozzyd 7y ago

Hard to weep for the most polluted city in the world about this.

olivermarks 7y ago

2016 article, entertaining Guardian comment thread below

dang 7y ago
Ah thanks. Added above.

nn3 7y ago

While they will may have temporary problems in places I suspect Siberia will be a long term winner from climate change. All the people displaced from flooded coastal settlements have to move somewhere after all.

brm 7y ago
There aren’t going to be long term winners from climate change. They might be less affected but it’s not going to be good. New illnesses, food scarcity and other things will only make some places “winnings” a relative thing. Would you consider a tornado that levels your house a long term winner for your basement?
- 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago
  No, there are places that are borderline unhabitable now that will become more livable as the climate warms. Here's one study: http://blogs.cuit.columbia.edu/jmp2265/?page_id=48 http://blogs.cuit.columbia.edu/jmp2265/?page_id=48 As a tangible example, Greenland is now starting to be warm enough to grow potatoes: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6993612.stm http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6993612.stm
  - crygin 7y ago
    They're not going to be so nice when they're at the other end of a four-billion-person refugee crisis in a few decades.
  - 2_listerine_pls 7y ago
    Isn't the methane release going to accelerate the warming exponentially to the point of mass-extintion? The so-called feedback effect. Permafrost is thawing 70 years before the simplistic models predicted: - https://www.livescience.com/65709-arctic-permafrost-melts-decades-early.html https://www.livescience.com/65709-arctic-permafrost-melts-de... - https://envisionation.co.uk/index.php/nick-breeze/203-subsea-permafrost-on-east-siberian-arctic-shelf-now-in-accelerated-decline https://envisionation.co.uk/index.php/nick-breeze/203-subsea... Also, there is Nitrous Oxide too, which will deplete the Ozone layer: - https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/06/harvard-chemist-permafrost-n2o-levels-12-times-higher-than-expected/ https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2019/06/harvard-chemi...
    - 9nGQluzmnq3M 7y ago

m0zg 7y ago

The problem is as old as permafrost itself: I remember reading as a child about problems with permafrost stability (or rather lack thereof) when they were building БАМ (Baikal-Amur Mainline). They'd lay tracks only to watch them be torn by permafrost movement a year or two (or sometimes a month) later. Somehow they did figure out how to make things stable enough for the railway to be operational. It is currently being upgraded to double the capacity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baikal%E2%80%93Amur_Mainline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baikal%E2%80%93Amur_Mainline

mempko 7y ago
The problem is getting worse very fast. While the permafrost was always somewhat unstable , what is happening now is unprecedented.

akeck 7y ago

Apparently there's tech called a thermosyphon to keep permafrost under foundations frozen. https://mass.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/nvmms.sci.phys.permafrost/preserving-permafrost/ https://mass.pbslearningmedia.org/resource/nvmms.sci.phys.pe...

Anthony-G 7y ago
That's mentioned in the article, alright: > If temperature monitoring or visible deformations tip maintenance workers off in time, structures can be saved. Thermosyphons were installed to cool the soil under the apartment block at 36 Nansen Street when temperature probes showed warming there, for instance. > But sometimes changes come too suddenly. A brick office building on Komsomolskaya street cracked like an egg one September morning in 2009 and stands empty to this day. A top corner of the building pitched forward 70cm, sending jagged fissures up the middle of its facade and squashing windows.
simonebrunozzi 7y ago
Interestingly, "termosifone" is the Italian word for the cast-iron radiator, used to heat homes.

ageofwant 7y ago

All those ancient prions, viruses and bacteria that the world have not been exposed to for eons, now floating in the air and water, may very well be the best solution to the human overpopulation problem.

rexpop 7y ago
You're sick.
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't respond to a bad comment with another bad comment. The site guidelines ask you not to: "Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead." Also, please restrain yourself from personal attack, regardless of how bad a comment is. Maybe you don't owe the person better, but you owe this community better if you want to keep posting here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
antonvs 7y ago
It's very unlikely. This article goes into more detail: https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/01/24/575974220/are-there-zombie-viruses-in-the-thawing-permafrost https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2018/01/24/5759742... The summary is that most of those viruses and bacteria are long dead, and in those cases where something was frozen recently enough to still be viable, you'd most likely need to go to extreme lengths - like "kneeling in defrosted marine mammal goo" - to get infected by it.
- rolltiide 7y ago
  So like how Ebola spreads got it, not very improbable at all Dead viruses and bacteria are resurrected just be being exposed to a single live version of itself
  - antonvs 7y ago
    You'll notice there's not much Ebola in the world. Despite the sensationalist "Hot Zone" journalism around it, it's not a serious threat in first world countries. The reason is precisely because the precautions one needs to take to avoid it are just basic hygiene that we take for granted. > Dead viruses and bacteria are resurrected just be being exposed to a single live version of itself Did you read the article I linked? Perhaps you should have told that to the scientists who tried but failed to culture frozen organisms. If they can't culture it in a lab, then the chances of it reviving on its own in the wild are very low. I can't believe we're discussing a literal X-Files plot as though it's scientifically realistic.

aaron695 7y ago

Are we seriously trying to claim the people in this region are worse off? This Global Warming religion is far more nonsensical than the standard old school ones. I wonder if the Atheist groups realised this, that by destroying the standard religions, people would just move to others? To state the obvious, statements like this are more or less lies - "12-year-old boy in Salekhard died from anthrax in August after thawing released bacteria" https://www.wbur.org/npr/575974220/are-there-zombie-viruses-in-the-thawing-permafrost" https://www.wbur.org/npr/575974220/are-there-zombie-viruses-... But it's pointless fighting religions on their gospel I guess, people believe what they want to believe. GW will cause zombie viruses for the end of days, along with the earth catastrophically melting, floods and fire. (Earth, Air, Fire and Water)

edejong 7y ago

Yet another alarmist article stretching to find a relationship with our man-made climate change. It is sowing doubt instead. Press (especially the far-left Guardian) should think twice publishing this. There are much better indicators such as bleaching of corals and global satellite measurements.

pg_is_a_butt 7y ago

After the Arcticans can till their soil and grow crops, it won't be long until they are developing nuclear weapons.