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Given what I have seen in some large corporations, I honestly believe that eBay has the data on which companies use very old computers in mission critical proce

Given what I have seen in some large corporations, I honestly believe that eBay has the data on which companies use very old computers in mission critical processes. The amount of "vintage" parts that were bought off sellers on eBay by a couple of corporations I was at was rather large. It amazes me what has to happen for some companies to realize that your logistic system needing parts from eBay is a bad thing.

hanniabu 7y ago
It's the "whatever keeps it moving" mindset rather than the "take a hit now for a better return later" mindset. I used to work as a Colgate factory making liquid soap and it blew my mind how poor of a condition their machinery was in and how it was run. Machines help together literally with ductape, zipties, and miscellaneous objects that we could find around the plant to repurpose or materials we could find at Walmart (it's the only place around open 24hrs). Many times machines would be down and instead of fixing them we would just "throw people" at the issue and keep the lines running with manual labor, creating an insane amount of inefficiency and waste so that there's no "downtime".
- xzel 7y ago
  That shows how little value most labor has, unfortunately, versus how much money can be make just keep the business running. It’s a simple computation for anyone upstairs.
  - llukas 7y ago
    Depending of exact set KPI for anyone "upstairs".
  - caseymarquis 7y ago
    In that kind of manufacturing environment, typically it's just middle management keeping things at a local maximum and hiding problems from plant managers. Middle management is incentivized to maintain said local maximum based on some arbitrary metric (ie uptime) which can be decoupled from productivity. This is the primary mistake. Plant managers usually have the bigger picture in mind, but aren't aware of the issues, as they trust the people below them. Operators eventually stop complaining when nothing gets done, as they assume that's how it works. This leads to money spent fixing operator culture, which is really just a more visible symptom of the actual issue. Long story short, you get what you incentivize for. Incentivize carefully.
- macspoofing 7y ago
  >rather than the "take a hit now for a better return later" mindset Are you sure it will be better later? History is littered with rewrites that ended in disaster. So what is wrong with the "if it ain't broke ..." mindset instead?
  - shakna 7y ago
    > So what is wrong with the "if it ain't broke ..." mindset instead? If your repair parts are coming from collectors, it is broke, and you're entering a stage where you can't guarantee that you can actually fix it.
    - ghaff 7y ago
      It really depends. A lot of old equipment around the world is kept running by finding and buying used parts or getting something custom made. Sure, at a given company or plant, some equipment might be costing more to keep running than it's worth and/or maintenance is just being deferred. But pretty much any industrial location is keeping things running with a lot of used parts.
    - orionblastar 7y ago
      Ecom extends OS/2 to modern systems there is also Blue Lion. Just buy a low end $150 PC with supported drivers.
- southern_cross 7y ago
  30 years ago I walked into a facility (in order to help them with some computer issues) and at the time their main production equipment was over 100 years old, but still going strong. (It had a "Made in 1875" nameplate on it.) They kept it in good working order, and were in no hurry to replace it, either, except that the EPA was forcing their hand because the old equipment couldn't meet modern environmental standards. Incidentally, the mindset that you reference above is also the same mindset which causes places to not kept sufficient spare parts on hand so that fixes can be made quickly. It seems that they would rather experience extended downtime than pay to have spare parts on hand which could minimize that downtime.
  - philpem 7y ago
    What you're describing there is a somewhat perverted version of "Lean" manufacturing. Example - there's a production line that's been running 20 years on a 1980s computer. For continuity reasons, there are two spares in the warehouse. There hasn't been a failure in years, the spares are kept because finding replacements would be near-impossible. Some management consultant rides in screeching about how these two mission-critical systems are "sunk cost" and "need to be disposed of to make the place clean and tidy". So they are. Three weeks later, the primary fails and there are no spares...
southern_cross 7y ago
In the automotive world (and no doubt others), an awful lot of less-than-brand-new vehicles are kept running using salvaged parts, for the mechanical bits and the body and so on. And even in the computer world, in the old days it was nothing for someones's old, expensive-when-bought-new computer system to be retired and then become someone else's "new", far-less-expensive-when-bought-used computer system. Or for the old stuff to be raided for parts, and so on. So it's not at all a new concept, and places like eBay just help facilitate this process these days.

hanniabu 7y ago

It's the "whatever keeps it moving" mindset rather than the "take a hit now for a better return later" mindset. I used to work as a Colgate factory making liquid soap and it blew my mind how poor of a condition their machinery was in and how it was run. Machines help together literally with ductape, zipties, and miscellaneous objects that we could find around the plant to repurpose or materials we could find at Walmart (it's the only place around open 24hrs). Many times machines would be down and instead of fixing them we would just "throw people" at the issue and keep the lines running with manual labor, creating an insane amount of inefficiency and waste so that there's no "downtime".

xzel 7y ago
That shows how little value most labor has, unfortunately, versus how much money can be make just keep the business running. It’s a simple computation for anyone upstairs.
- llukas 7y ago
  Depending of exact set KPI for anyone "upstairs".
- caseymarquis 7y ago
  In that kind of manufacturing environment, typically it's just middle management keeping things at a local maximum and hiding problems from plant managers. Middle management is incentivized to maintain said local maximum based on some arbitrary metric (ie uptime) which can be decoupled from productivity. This is the primary mistake. Plant managers usually have the bigger picture in mind, but aren't aware of the issues, as they trust the people below them. Operators eventually stop complaining when nothing gets done, as they assume that's how it works. This leads to money spent fixing operator culture, which is really just a more visible symptom of the actual issue. Long story short, you get what you incentivize for. Incentivize carefully.
macspoofing 7y ago
>rather than the "take a hit now for a better return later" mindset Are you sure it will be better later? History is littered with rewrites that ended in disaster. So what is wrong with the "if it ain't broke ..." mindset instead?
- shakna 7y ago
  > So what is wrong with the "if it ain't broke ..." mindset instead? If your repair parts are coming from collectors, it is broke, and you're entering a stage where you can't guarantee that you can actually fix it.
  - ghaff 7y ago
    It really depends. A lot of old equipment around the world is kept running by finding and buying used parts or getting something custom made. Sure, at a given company or plant, some equipment might be costing more to keep running than it's worth and/or maintenance is just being deferred. But pretty much any industrial location is keeping things running with a lot of used parts.
  - orionblastar 7y ago
    Ecom extends OS/2 to modern systems there is also Blue Lion. Just buy a low end $150 PC with supported drivers.
southern_cross 7y ago
30 years ago I walked into a facility (in order to help them with some computer issues) and at the time their main production equipment was over 100 years old, but still going strong. (It had a "Made in 1875" nameplate on it.) They kept it in good working order, and were in no hurry to replace it, either, except that the EPA was forcing their hand because the old equipment couldn't meet modern environmental standards. Incidentally, the mindset that you reference above is also the same mindset which causes places to not kept sufficient spare parts on hand so that fixes can be made quickly. It seems that they would rather experience extended downtime than pay to have spare parts on hand which could minimize that downtime.
- philpem 7y ago
  What you're describing there is a somewhat perverted version of "Lean" manufacturing. Example - there's a production line that's been running 20 years on a 1980s computer. For continuity reasons, there are two spares in the warehouse. There hasn't been a failure in years, the spares are kept because finding replacements would be near-impossible. Some management consultant rides in screeching about how these two mission-critical systems are "sunk cost" and "need to be disposed of to make the place clean and tidy". So they are. Three weeks later, the primary fails and there are no spares...

southern_cross 7y ago

In the automotive world (and no doubt others), an awful lot of less-than-brand-new vehicles are kept running using salvaged parts, for the mechanical bits and the body and so on. And even in the computer world, in the old days it was nothing for someones's old, expensive-when-bought-new computer system to be retired and then become someone else's "new", far-less-expensive-when-bought-used computer system. Or for the old stuff to be raided for parts, and so on. So it's not at all a new concept, and places like eBay just help facilitate this process these days.