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Alcohol taxes, proposals to imprison people for drinking (see the same author's article about said program in https://www.vox.com/2016/2/9/10955138/alcohol-247-

by zzzeek 7y ago

Alcohol taxes, proposals to imprison people for drinking (see the same author's article about said program in https://www.vox.com/2016/2/9/10955138/alcohol-247-sobriety-program https://www.vox.com/2016/2/9/10955138/alcohol-247-sobriety-p...), all ways of spreading more suffering and incarceration among low income, vulnerable communities, while hardly affecting privileged communities at all. Alcoholism is a disease and should not be treated with incarceration.

joshgel 7y ago
> Alcoholism is a disease While this is true, it’s also a disease that impacts certain communities and demographics differently than others. Its a disease which therefore can be mediated by changing social environment and norms. So while I also don’t support incarceration of alcoholics, it’s not unreasonable to consider legal and political interventions to improve public health.
- thrower123 7y ago
  Alcoholism can be a disease, but that involves a very different beast than what most people call alcoholism. I'm not sure it is a helpful framing. I would certainly argue that the model promulgated by AA is very unhelpful, although it has polluted the popular consciousness heavily. In the USA at least. Other countries have more reasonable relationships with alcohol.
bitcurious 7y ago
Unlike most diseases, alcoholism has direct and often violent effects on second parties. Sure, “think of the children” is a cliche, but it exists for a reason. Second, you equate prison and taxes, and declare both to be morally unsound. It’s a neat rhetorical trick, but like my math instructor used to say: “show your work.” As far as I know, taxes work. Additionally you assume that alcoholism (even treated as a disease) is the target of these policies. What about the cost of alcohol on non-addicts? The social drinker that misjudged their state and crashed a car? The kid who fucks up his liver because he took Tylenol to treat his hangover? Even if a tax won’t deter an alcoholic it might work for the rest of society.
- zzzeek 7y ago
  > Second, you equate prison and taxes, hardly? > and declare both to be morally unsound. hardly? > It’s a neat rhetorical trick, but like my math instructor used to say: like my english instructor would say, "did you even read the book?" > The social drinker that misjudged their state and crashed a car? they'd be incarcerated for drunk driving, not drinking in and of itself. > The kid who fucks up his liver because he took Tylenol to treat his hangover? you can screw up your liver taking too many tylenols without alcohol, and a privileged high school kid isn't not going to drink at some party because taxes made it cost a few dollars more. alcohol taxes are only going to impact low income people in any meaningful way. if the theory is, well these damn poor people just keep drinking too much and can't control themselves, the alcohol is not the reason for that, the poverty is. Address poverty, not punishing people for being poor. edit: if I may add some tangible detail, in my extended family are some extremely impoverished, extremely diseased alcoholics. What these people need urgently, right now, is medical care and addiction rehabilitation services. Like, several weeks in a quality in-patient facility would be great, such a thing costs tens of thousands of dollars and is available only to the very privileged. Medical care and quality rehabilitation services are not generally available to impoverished people in the US. An alcohol tax would quite directly mean they simply would have even less money to buy food, which would directly impact the health of their 16 year old son, and incarcerating them would also destroy whatever financial ability they have left to survive. It's pretty offensive to read about proposals just to tax and punish people negatively affected by alcohol without even a consideration for the rehabilitation and medical services they desparately need and are denied by the US system of health care. Address the health care and poverty first. Going straight to punishment is cruel and out of touch.
  - true_religion 7y ago
    The truth is that if you make a law for the betterment of general society, it’s poor people who you want to target simply because there are more of them. Trying to coral rich people with far greater resources to circumvent laws just leads to laws that are more oppressive and far reaching to yield the same effects.
- dragonwriter 7y ago

by zzzeek 7y ago

joshgel 7y ago

> Alcoholism is a disease While this is true, it’s also a disease that impacts certain communities and demographics differently than others. Its a disease which therefore can be mediated by changing social environment and norms. So while I also don’t support incarceration of alcoholics, it’s not unreasonable to consider legal and political interventions to improve public health.

thrower123 7y ago
Alcoholism can be a disease, but that involves a very different beast than what most people call alcoholism. I'm not sure it is a helpful framing. I would certainly argue that the model promulgated by AA is very unhelpful, although it has polluted the popular consciousness heavily. In the USA at least. Other countries have more reasonable relationships with alcohol.

bitcurious 7y ago

Unlike most diseases, alcoholism has direct and often violent effects on second parties. Sure, “think of the children” is a cliche, but it exists for a reason. Second, you equate prison and taxes, and declare both to be morally unsound. It’s a neat rhetorical trick, but like my math instructor used to say: “show your work.” As far as I know, taxes work. Additionally you assume that alcoholism (even treated as a disease) is the target of these policies. What about the cost of alcohol on non-addicts? The social drinker that misjudged their state and crashed a car? The kid who fucks up his liver because he took Tylenol to treat his hangover? Even if a tax won’t deter an alcoholic it might work for the rest of society.

zzzeek 7y ago
> Second, you equate prison and taxes, hardly? > and declare both to be morally unsound. hardly? > It’s a neat rhetorical trick, but like my math instructor used to say: like my english instructor would say, "did you even read the book?" > The social drinker that misjudged their state and crashed a car? they'd be incarcerated for drunk driving, not drinking in and of itself. > The kid who fucks up his liver because he took Tylenol to treat his hangover? you can screw up your liver taking too many tylenols without alcohol, and a privileged high school kid isn't not going to drink at some party because taxes made it cost a few dollars more. alcohol taxes are only going to impact low income people in any meaningful way. if the theory is, well these damn poor people just keep drinking too much and can't control themselves, the alcohol is not the reason for that, the poverty is. Address poverty, not punishing people for being poor. edit: if I may add some tangible detail, in my extended family are some extremely impoverished, extremely diseased alcoholics. What these people need urgently, right now, is medical care and addiction rehabilitation services. Like, several weeks in a quality in-patient facility would be great, such a thing costs tens of thousands of dollars and is available only to the very privileged. Medical care and quality rehabilitation services are not generally available to impoverished people in the US. An alcohol tax would quite directly mean they simply would have even less money to buy food, which would directly impact the health of their 16 year old son, and incarcerating them would also destroy whatever financial ability they have left to survive. It's pretty offensive to read about proposals just to tax and punish people negatively affected by alcohol without even a consideration for the rehabilitation and medical services they desparately need and are denied by the US system of health care. Address the health care and poverty first. Going straight to punishment is cruel and out of touch.
- true_religion 7y ago
  The truth is that if you make a law for the betterment of general society, it’s poor people who you want to target simply because there are more of them. Trying to coral rich people with far greater resources to circumvent laws just leads to laws that are more oppressive and far reaching to yield the same effects.
dragonwriter 7y ago