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I'm curious why you're all over this thread pretending that China didn't block the UK from making Hong Kong democratic for over 60 years. Which is something I

by atr_gz 7y ago

I'm curious why you're all over this thread pretending that China didn't block the UK from making Hong Kong democratic for over 60 years. Which is something I learned about in the Western media, by the way, and that it would be nearly impossible to learn in Chinese media. Also the claim that these protests were caused by foreign influence is wrong and insulting. It also echos what the higher-level CCP members have been saying.

confusedhnguy 7y ago
> block the UK from making Hong Kong democratic for over 60 years Citation needed. Also, the UK is extremely famous for intentionally or unintentionally leaving a mess when it leaves, any sane government will not just let the British do whatever they want. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/18/opinion/india-pakistan-partition-imperial-britain.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/18/opinion/india-pakistan-pa... > nearly impossible to learn in Chinese media It is also nearly impossible to learn anything about the opium wars in Western media, or how the governors of HK are all appointed by the British monarch directly. So I guess we are even here. > Also the claim that these protests were caused by foreign influence is wrong and insulting. Then what is this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democra... BTW he/she said "largely encouraged".
- atr_gz 7y ago
  >Citation needed. Here ya go (he has further citations at the bottom if you're really interested): https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6vybgc/in_the_years_leading_up_to_britains_handover_of/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/... Regardless of whose fault it is, it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the people of HK should have self-determination. >It is also nearly impossible to learn anything about the opium wars in Western media, or how the governors of HK are all appointed by the British monarch directly. I don't know about that, I learned about it in high school. Here's a more recent book and review about it: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/07/02/books/review/stephen-r-platt-imperial-twilight.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/07/02/book... >Then what is this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democra.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democra.... >BTW he/she said "largely encouraged". So the existence of the NED proves to you that a large portion of the protestors in Hong Kong are foreign-influenced? Okay. Personally, I think it's more likely that they're concerned about their rights and it's insulting to say otherwise.
  - confusedhnguy 7y ago
    So, preventing HK from declaring independence is equivalent to blocking democracy? Straw man argument. > Regardless of whose fault it is God I wish I am from the West, I don't have do be responsible for the mess I created. Just say this sentence and I am invulnerable to accusations and should be trusted again. That's one link about the opium wars, it is completely unhelpful to resolve the issues created by the massive amounts of news that do not talk about the opium wars when they talk about HK. If more people know what happened during the opium wars, the it will not be so hard to understand that HK should be returned with no strings attached, and the one country two systems policy is already a big step back from the Chinese government that takes the welfare of the people of HK into account. About your last point, I don't plan to convince you. If you think the West is innocent after you see what a mess this world is, good for you. But please bear in mind that this is also insulting to the countless people who suffered in other parts of the world. People didn't just wake up and decide to dislike you.
    - atr_gz 7y ago
      Wow, you only read the thread title of the first link I gave you. Obviously you aren't interested in learning anything. If you change your mind, read a little further. You claimed that it's impossible to read about the Opium Wars in Western media, I say I learned about it in high school history and give you one of thousands upon thousands of links about it that will come up when you search. I never claimed the West was innocent, nor that they should be forgiven about anything. You're just adding all that stuff in to further muddle the discussion when you've been proven wrong. I hope you learn to challenge your own beliefs, because after your comments I don't think it's a good use of my time to continue discussing things with you.
      - confusedhnguy 7y ago
        OK I admit that I didn't read the whole thing. So I go back and read every single line of that link. OK, the Provisional Legislative Council was questionable in your view, I understand. But how exactly does this proves that the Chinese government blocked the democracy for 60 years? How about the existence of LegCo? Also I still don't think we agree on what the word "return" means. Yes there are thousands of links that talk about the opium wars, and you have learned about it in school, but that doesn't help because the news don't talk about it. If you decide to include every wrong doings of the CCP when you talk about HK, it is dishonest to exclude the UK's dirty history. I would also ask you to challenge your beliefs about why some parts of the world is unstable. I do not have proofs about whether there is someone behind this event in HK, but the protesters also have no proof that this bill is going to make HK a 1984-like society. China is a country surrounded by enemies, it isn't a bad thing to be paranoid, especially when people are clearly overreacting. https://www.investigaction.net/en/trojan-horses-and-color-revolutions-the-role-of-the-national-endowment-for-democracy-ned/ https://www.investigaction.net/en/trojan-horses-and-color-re...

by atr_gz 7y ago

confusedhnguy 7y ago

> block the UK from making Hong Kong democratic for over 60 years Citation needed. Also, the UK is extremely famous for intentionally or unintentionally leaving a mess when it leaves, any sane government will not just let the British do whatever they want. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/18/opinion/india-pakistan-partition-imperial-britain.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/18/opinion/india-pakistan-pa... > nearly impossible to learn in Chinese media It is also nearly impossible to learn anything about the opium wars in Western media, or how the governors of HK are all appointed by the British monarch directly. So I guess we are even here. > Also the claim that these protests were caused by foreign influence is wrong and insulting. Then what is this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democracy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democra... BTW he/she said "largely encouraged".

atr_gz 7y ago
>Citation needed. Here ya go (he has further citations at the bottom if you're really interested): https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6vybgc/in_the_years_leading_up_to_britains_handover_of/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/... Regardless of whose fault it is, it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not the people of HK should have self-determination. >It is also nearly impossible to learn anything about the opium wars in Western media, or how the governors of HK are all appointed by the British monarch directly. I don't know about that, I learned about it in high school. Here's a more recent book and review about it: https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/07/02/books/review/stephen-r-platt-imperial-twilight.amp.html https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nytimes.com/2018/07/02/book... >Then what is this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democra.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Endowment_for_Democra.... >BTW he/she said "largely encouraged". So the existence of the NED proves to you that a large portion of the protestors in Hong Kong are foreign-influenced? Okay. Personally, I think it's more likely that they're concerned about their rights and it's insulting to say otherwise.
- confusedhnguy 7y ago
  So, preventing HK from declaring independence is equivalent to blocking democracy? Straw man argument. > Regardless of whose fault it is God I wish I am from the West, I don't have do be responsible for the mess I created. Just say this sentence and I am invulnerable to accusations and should be trusted again. That's one link about the opium wars, it is completely unhelpful to resolve the issues created by the massive amounts of news that do not talk about the opium wars when they talk about HK. If more people know what happened during the opium wars, the it will not be so hard to understand that HK should be returned with no strings attached, and the one country two systems policy is already a big step back from the Chinese government that takes the welfare of the people of HK into account. About your last point, I don't plan to convince you. If you think the West is innocent after you see what a mess this world is, good for you. But please bear in mind that this is also insulting to the countless people who suffered in other parts of the world. People didn't just wake up and decide to dislike you.
  - atr_gz 7y ago
    Wow, you only read the thread title of the first link I gave you. Obviously you aren't interested in learning anything. If you change your mind, read a little further. You claimed that it's impossible to read about the Opium Wars in Western media, I say I learned about it in high school history and give you one of thousands upon thousands of links about it that will come up when you search. I never claimed the West was innocent, nor that they should be forgiven about anything. You're just adding all that stuff in to further muddle the discussion when you've been proven wrong. I hope you learn to challenge your own beliefs, because after your comments I don't think it's a good use of my time to continue discussing things with you.
    - confusedhnguy 7y ago
      OK I admit that I didn't read the whole thing. So I go back and read every single line of that link. OK, the Provisional Legislative Council was questionable in your view, I understand. But how exactly does this proves that the Chinese government blocked the democracy for 60 years? How about the existence of LegCo? Also I still don't think we agree on what the word "return" means. Yes there are thousands of links that talk about the opium wars, and you have learned about it in school, but that doesn't help because the news don't talk about it. If you decide to include every wrong doings of the CCP when you talk about HK, it is dishonest to exclude the UK's dirty history. I would also ask you to challenge your beliefs about why some parts of the world is unstable. I do not have proofs about whether there is someone behind this event in HK, but the protesters also have no proof that this bill is going to make HK a 1984-like society. China is a country surrounded by enemies, it isn't a bad thing to be paranoid, especially when people are clearly overreacting. https://www.investigaction.net/en/trojan-horses-and-color-revolutions-the-role-of-the-national-endowment-for-democracy-ned/ https://www.investigaction.net/en/trojan-horses-and-color-re...