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Holy crap. This is huge news. Isn’t a cyber attack on critical infrastructure kind of an act of war? I’m not sure how wise this course of action is.

holoduke 7y ago
It's part of a larger game these nations are playing. There will not be a war between Russia and the US. Not with China who is ultimately the enemy of both Russia and the US. These incidents are meant to keep each other awake.
- mycall 7y ago
  This depends. If blackouts start happening, the situation could escalate to war pretty fast.
  - yasp 7y ago
    Plus, what if multiple state actors penetrate a system and each lay their own "implants"? Mutually assuredly destruction only works if you can attribute an attack. Unless you're planning on destroying non-guilty actors too. What if NK, China, and Russia all hack the same system and then eventually the system fails catastrophically as a result of malware and no one takes credit. How could the US respond? What if the perpetrator were an adversary that wasn't even known to have penetrated the system?
    - mirimir 7y ago
      True. The perpetrator could be some kid, doing it for lulz. Edit: As in "WarGames".
- jacquesm 7y ago
  It sets the stage for a false flag operation where the Chinese disable Russia's power infrastructure making it look like it was America.
  - hmage 7y ago
    False flag operations aren't new concept, taking out Ukraine's power plants for a few hours could also be false flag operation with Russia not even involved as a pretext to get more military funding. Or russian links to Trump a false flag operation by some third party to install their own president. I've seen russia used as a scary monster so often I always think "who does _actually_ benefit from this" whenever russia comes up in news headlines.
    - zzzcpan 7y ago
      > taking out Ukraine's power plants for a few hours That didn't actually happen.
- majos 7y ago
  What do you mean by "these incidents are meant to keep each other awake"? Why would you want to keep a competitor awake?
  - PhasmaFelis 7y ago
    Keep them wary, so they don't get overconfident and try something that both sides will wind up regretting.
  - manigandham 7y ago
    More of a show of force. The same way militaries physically project power to let the other side know what's possible.
- ptx 7y ago
  China and Russia just "agreed to upgrade their relationship to a comprehensive strategic partnership": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWBEVwIdTxE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWBEVwIdTxE
mirimir 7y ago
I recall reading, some years ago, that the US reserves the right to respond to cyberattacks with nuclear weapons. I wonder if Russia also does. Playing games with power grids etc is arguably much higher stakes than fighters messing with each other, or even with passenger planes. Or navy ships passing too closely. Edit: I guess that it was more like a heads up for adversaries. As in "don't think that we won't". Just in case you didn't think we were that hardcore.
- kyrieeschaton 7y ago
  Every state "reserves the right" to do whatever they want, including things they have previously claimed they will not do. That is literally the definition of sovereignty.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    Point taken. I guess that it was more like a heads up for adversaries. As in "don't think that we won't".
  - hammock 7y ago
    Countries in Europe have given up some sovereignty to the EU. Example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_(Factortame_Ltd)_v_Secretary_of_State_for_Transport https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_(Factortame_Ltd)_v_Secreta...
    - undersuit 7y ago
      Yes, the legal framework is there, but it is up to the members to enforce it. It's the classic: "What are you going to do, hit me?" response after hitting someone. Just be glad most countries maintain some semblance of civility.
      - hammock 7y ago
        Hence the benefit of nuclear weapons. Although even the UK caved.
emXdem 7y ago
You remember VPNFilter? I'd certainly consider that and other disinformation campaigns acts of war.
meritt 7y ago
Have you read about the 2016 United States election interference? [1] Or the Russian probing of the US power grid? [2] Russia has been attacking critical infrastructure in the US for years. This is at best an incredibly latent response from a government who in many cases welcomes these attacks. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/27/us/politics/russian-hackers-electric-grid-elections-.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/27/us/politics/russian-hacke...
- crdoconnor 7y ago
  It's difficult to tell what's true and what is made up by the US military as a pretext to keep ratcheting tensions up (and justify their existence): https://theintercept.com/2016/12/31/russia-hysteria-infects-washpost-again-false-story-about-hacking-u-s-electric-grid/ https://theintercept.com/2016/12/31/russia-hysteria-infects-...
PixyMisa 7y ago
If so, then Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea have been at war with the US for years.

holoduke 7y ago

It's part of a larger game these nations are playing. There will not be a war between Russia and the US. Not with China who is ultimately the enemy of both Russia and the US. These incidents are meant to keep each other awake.

mycall 7y ago
This depends. If blackouts start happening, the situation could escalate to war pretty fast.
- yasp 7y ago
  Plus, what if multiple state actors penetrate a system and each lay their own "implants"? Mutually assuredly destruction only works if you can attribute an attack. Unless you're planning on destroying non-guilty actors too. What if NK, China, and Russia all hack the same system and then eventually the system fails catastrophically as a result of malware and no one takes credit. How could the US respond? What if the perpetrator were an adversary that wasn't even known to have penetrated the system?
  - mirimir 7y ago
    True. The perpetrator could be some kid, doing it for lulz. Edit: As in "WarGames".
jacquesm 7y ago
It sets the stage for a false flag operation where the Chinese disable Russia's power infrastructure making it look like it was America.
- hmage 7y ago
  False flag operations aren't new concept, taking out Ukraine's power plants for a few hours could also be false flag operation with Russia not even involved as a pretext to get more military funding. Or russian links to Trump a false flag operation by some third party to install their own president. I've seen russia used as a scary monster so often I always think "who does _actually_ benefit from this" whenever russia comes up in news headlines.
  - zzzcpan 7y ago
    > taking out Ukraine's power plants for a few hours That didn't actually happen.
majos 7y ago
What do you mean by "these incidents are meant to keep each other awake"? Why would you want to keep a competitor awake?
- PhasmaFelis 7y ago
  Keep them wary, so they don't get overconfident and try something that both sides will wind up regretting.
- manigandham 7y ago
  More of a show of force. The same way militaries physically project power to let the other side know what's possible.
ptx 7y ago
China and Russia just "agreed to upgrade their relationship to a comprehensive strategic partnership": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWBEVwIdTxE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sWBEVwIdTxE

mirimir 7y ago

I recall reading, some years ago, that the US reserves the right to respond to cyberattacks with nuclear weapons. I wonder if Russia also does. Playing games with power grids etc is arguably much higher stakes than fighters messing with each other, or even with passenger planes. Or navy ships passing too closely. Edit: I guess that it was more like a heads up for adversaries. As in "don't think that we won't". Just in case you didn't think we were that hardcore.

kyrieeschaton 7y ago
Every state "reserves the right" to do whatever they want, including things they have previously claimed they will not do. That is literally the definition of sovereignty.
- mirimir 7y ago
  Point taken. I guess that it was more like a heads up for adversaries. As in "don't think that we won't".
- hammock 7y ago
  Countries in Europe have given up some sovereignty to the EU. Example: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_(Factortame_Ltd)_v_Secretary_of_State_for_Transport https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/R_(Factortame_Ltd)_v_Secreta...
  - undersuit 7y ago
    Yes, the legal framework is there, but it is up to the members to enforce it. It's the classic: "What are you going to do, hit me?" response after hitting someone. Just be glad most countries maintain some semblance of civility.
    - hammock 7y ago
      Hence the benefit of nuclear weapons. Although even the UK caved.

emXdem 7y ago

You remember VPNFilter? I'd certainly consider that and other disinformation campaigns acts of war.

meritt 7y ago

Have you read about the 2016 United States election interference? [1] Or the Russian probing of the US power grid? [2] Russia has been attacking critical infrastructure in the US for years. This is at best an incredibly latent response from a government who in many cases welcomes these attacks. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_2016_United_States_elections https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_interference_in_the_20... [2] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/27/us/politics/russian-hackers-electric-grid-elections-.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/27/us/politics/russian-hacke...

crdoconnor 7y ago
It's difficult to tell what's true and what is made up by the US military as a pretext to keep ratcheting tensions up (and justify their existence): https://theintercept.com/2016/12/31/russia-hysteria-infects-washpost-again-false-story-about-hacking-u-s-electric-grid/ https://theintercept.com/2016/12/31/russia-hysteria-infects-...

PixyMisa 7y ago

If so, then Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea have been at war with the US for years.