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I am a grad student leaving university soon enough, and this does not surprise me at all. Especially at elite universities, there is this interesting phenomeno

I am a grad student leaving university soon enough, and this does not surprise me at all. Especially at elite universities, there is this interesting phenomenon of mostly upper middle class white women from on average the most privileged upbringings in the western hemisphere arriving at a university they (anyone) could only attend by incredible privilege and luck. Yet they arrive fully convinced they have been held back by the patriarchy their entire lives. Same for other groups and their pet causes. They find no apparent contradiction at being the most privileged of their generation (speaking of Harvard, Oxbridge, Stanford here), yet the smaller and local the cause, the more vicious the activism. Someone they disagree with dare speak on campus? Violence, trauma, discrimination, hate. Getting arrested for taking off a veil in Iran? Genocide? Consumerism destroying the planet? Yawn. I often see people on hn saying this is all blown out of proportion and a small vocal minority but when you talk to undergrads these days, you will realize these beliefs are not just a handful of people but carry weight across the student population. Not least because opposition is shamed into silence. University admins are usually easily cowed submission on these causes, mostly because it does not cost them anything to uninvite/fire someone.

DoofusOfDeath 7y ago
I find your narrative plausible, but I wish I had good quantitative data about the generalizations / trends you mention. Otherwise it's hard to decide how much weight to give your generalizations.
DanBC 7y ago
People misunderstand the concept of privilege. You compare people from similar socio-economic backgrounds. You don't compare dissimilar groups. Those women are being held back when you compare to their brothers.
- baggy_trough 7y ago
  Certainly this is nonsense. A significant majority of undergraduate and graduate degrees go to women.
  - halter73 7y ago
    Because the proportion of college degrees is the only measure of privilege /s. Convenient not to consider representation in government or executive boardrooms.
    - mpweiher 7y ago
      Women tend to be over-represented in government and party leadership positions compared to their numbers at the base, for example as party members.
- high_derivative 7y ago
  Evidence needed, strongly. There is an incredible push happening at all levels of e.g. STEM, tech companies, everywhere, to get women. They receive special support, scholarships, extra application tracks, extra programs, preferred hiring, and boys are falling more and more behind. Are you really trying to say that the Harvard-Stanford-Oxbridge woman is held back compared to, say, the plumber's son (no offence, a highly useful profession, but you will find few of their children at these unis)?
  - 0xB31B1B 7y ago
    Not who you are replying to, but in general I would say that the things you point (extra help women receive right now) are in general working, and that the fact that they are working is supports the fact that they should continue. This doesn’t mean that men should not also receive targeted help, as should anyone who is disadvantaged, whether through socioeconomic status, race, disability, or otherwise. Solving problems that classes of people have on a class level and making those classes of people more successful is a good thing, and we should be doing more of it. There is a huge issue now where young men, especially those of low SES are not encouraged to or given the right pathways to find success and I see the wheels slowly start turning on social movement to facilitate positive change on that front as well, especially starting in early childhood education.
- wtdata 7y ago
  Woman are now 33% more likely to go to faculty than men. So care to explain how woman are being held back (unless your are proposing there are clear intelectual and cognitive differences between genders)? https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/28/university-gender-gap-at-record-high-as-30000-more-women-accepted https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/28/university...
- AnimalMuppet 7y ago
  And that's why the women outnumber the men on college campuses?
jccalhoun 7y ago
> I often see people on hn saying this is all blown out of proportion and a small vocal minority but when you talk to undergrads these days, you will realize these beliefs are not just a handful of people but carry weight across the student population. This may have to do with the student population because I teach undergrads at a community college and I have recently taught at a liberal arts college and find this really is blown out of proportion. When I try to talk to them about media literacy most (not all of course but most) say they never read the news and don't follow current events. >They find no apparent contradiction at being the most privileged of their generation (speaking of Harvard, Oxbridge, Stanford here), yet the smaller and local the cause, the more vicious the activism. Someone they disagree with dare speak on campus? Violence, trauma, discrimination, hate. >Getting arrested for taking off a veil in Iran? Genocide? Consumerism destroying the planet? Yawn. This is probably because they feel they can have an impact on local causes but can't do anything about international issues. What are they supposed to do about genocide in another country?
- high_derivative 7y ago
  This is a fair point - the local cause is the one more accessible. Here is a counterpoint: If you exalt a local event like the one in the original post (an arrest for a theft), or a speaker from the opposite political spectrum to terms like 'violence, hate speech, traumatizing' (words you will find in student newspapers and activism here), what is left for real events of actual drastic impact to society and the lives of others? This kind of activism is a concept inflation that is tearing societies apart from both ends. An interesting article on this: https://quillette.com/2019/02/14/the-boy-who-inflated-the-concept-of-wolf/ https://quillette.com/2019/02/14/the-boy-who-inflated-the-co...
  - ryanobjc 7y ago
    Quillette isn't a reputable source. Particularly in this area they specifically are well known to be advancing a "leftwing colleges are terrible" narrative.
- darkpuma 7y ago
  It seems to be proportional to class in my experience. The more privileged a student is, the more outspoken they are when criticizing what they perceive to be injustices holding them back. If we are being charitable, perhaps this is because the more privileged students have fewer repercussions from society to fear?
not_a_moth 7y ago
From my own experience, no, at the top universities the upper middle class demographic is far more concerned about lining up high paying jobs, networking, and/or working on their general social status than any sort of political activism at all. The activism comes from other groups, if even then. Maybe at small liberal arts colleges or less elite institutions your viewpoint might be true, but I can't speak for that.
- high_derivative 7y ago
  Just to clarify, I have spent the better part of the last decade at one of the institutions in my response. I have seen generations of students come and go. Your experience may differ but at least where I am, the qualitative change is this: earlier this decade, it's been really only small groups. Now, with students born after 2000 and having grown up fully immersed in social media being on campus, what would have been relatively niche wokeness in 2010 is 'common sense' for many. Including extremely low tolerance for view point diversity.
  - ZeroGravitas 7y ago
    Do you have any sources to back up a reduced tolerance for viewpoint diversity, or is it just that their Overton window has shifted away from yours? e.g. would they tolerate (even if they didn't fully agree with it) things on the extreme but opposite end of various political axis from you that you would consider beyond the pale, and vice versa? From your perspective what seems like a narrowing of viewpoint diversity could seem like a blossoming to someone diametrically opposed to you, because each sees the subtler distinctions between factions in their own comfort zone.
- mythrwy 7y ago
  Reading this I can't help but wonder where people graduating from Oberlin get jobs. Maybe as political campaign people or marketing or something? Just picturing someone walking into a large cement plan for an interview. "Why yes, I do believe I can pull this company into the black within 3 quarters. As you see I have a degree from Oberlin college...". Point being, graduating from there seems it could be not a positive signal but rather a huge red flag for any company engaged in productive pursuits. Like the person has been pre-trained to be aggrieved and look for issues and possibly sue over the smallest of slights. At least that's what would cross my mind as an interviewer.
mmmrk 7y ago
> Especially at elite universities, there is this interesting phenomenon of mostly upper middle class white women from on average the most privileged upbringings in the western hemisphere arriving at a university they (anyone) could only attend by incredible privilege and luck. Yet they arrive fully convinced they have been held back by the patriarchy their entire lives. Same for other groups and their pet causes. This does not have to be a contradiction. 1. If you come from a wealthy family, attending a prestigious university might be par for the course instead of an incredible privilege; you can still be "held back by the patriarchy" (no sarcasm intended). The two things can work in orthogonal ways. 2. They might realize they are privileged and are leveraging their position in an attempt to help others up, i.e. by raising/forcing awareness, a valid thing to do. Feminists aren't the only ones to do it. I perceive these two points to be common themes in "The Guilty Feminist" podcast I like to listen to.

DoofusOfDeath 7y ago

I find your narrative plausible, but I wish I had good quantitative data about the generalizations / trends you mention. Otherwise it's hard to decide how much weight to give your generalizations.

DanBC 7y ago

People misunderstand the concept of privilege. You compare people from similar socio-economic backgrounds. You don't compare dissimilar groups. Those women are being held back when you compare to their brothers.

baggy_trough 7y ago
Certainly this is nonsense. A significant majority of undergraduate and graduate degrees go to women.
- halter73 7y ago
  Because the proportion of college degrees is the only measure of privilege /s. Convenient not to consider representation in government or executive boardrooms.
  - mpweiher 7y ago
    Women tend to be over-represented in government and party leadership positions compared to their numbers at the base, for example as party members.
high_derivative 7y ago
Evidence needed, strongly. There is an incredible push happening at all levels of e.g. STEM, tech companies, everywhere, to get women. They receive special support, scholarships, extra application tracks, extra programs, preferred hiring, and boys are falling more and more behind. Are you really trying to say that the Harvard-Stanford-Oxbridge woman is held back compared to, say, the plumber's son (no offence, a highly useful profession, but you will find few of their children at these unis)?
- 0xB31B1B 7y ago
  Not who you are replying to, but in general I would say that the things you point (extra help women receive right now) are in general working, and that the fact that they are working is supports the fact that they should continue. This doesn’t mean that men should not also receive targeted help, as should anyone who is disadvantaged, whether through socioeconomic status, race, disability, or otherwise. Solving problems that classes of people have on a class level and making those classes of people more successful is a good thing, and we should be doing more of it. There is a huge issue now where young men, especially those of low SES are not encouraged to or given the right pathways to find success and I see the wheels slowly start turning on social movement to facilitate positive change on that front as well, especially starting in early childhood education.
wtdata 7y ago
Woman are now 33% more likely to go to faculty than men. So care to explain how woman are being held back (unless your are proposing there are clear intelectual and cognitive differences between genders)? https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/28/university-gender-gap-at-record-high-as-30000-more-women-accepted https://www.theguardian.com/education/2017/aug/28/university...
AnimalMuppet 7y ago
And that's why the women outnumber the men on college campuses?

jccalhoun 7y ago

> I often see people on hn saying this is all blown out of proportion and a small vocal minority but when you talk to undergrads these days, you will realize these beliefs are not just a handful of people but carry weight across the student population. This may have to do with the student population because I teach undergrads at a community college and I have recently taught at a liberal arts college and find this really is blown out of proportion. When I try to talk to them about media literacy most (not all of course but most) say they never read the news and don't follow current events. >They find no apparent contradiction at being the most privileged of their generation (speaking of Harvard, Oxbridge, Stanford here), yet the smaller and local the cause, the more vicious the activism. Someone they disagree with dare speak on campus? Violence, trauma, discrimination, hate. >Getting arrested for taking off a veil in Iran? Genocide? Consumerism destroying the planet? Yawn. This is probably because they feel they can have an impact on local causes but can't do anything about international issues. What are they supposed to do about genocide in another country?

high_derivative 7y ago
This is a fair point - the local cause is the one more accessible. Here is a counterpoint: If you exalt a local event like the one in the original post (an arrest for a theft), or a speaker from the opposite political spectrum to terms like 'violence, hate speech, traumatizing' (words you will find in student newspapers and activism here), what is left for real events of actual drastic impact to society and the lives of others? This kind of activism is a concept inflation that is tearing societies apart from both ends. An interesting article on this: https://quillette.com/2019/02/14/the-boy-who-inflated-the-concept-of-wolf/ https://quillette.com/2019/02/14/the-boy-who-inflated-the-co...
- ryanobjc 7y ago
  Quillette isn't a reputable source. Particularly in this area they specifically are well known to be advancing a "leftwing colleges are terrible" narrative.
darkpuma 7y ago
It seems to be proportional to class in my experience. The more privileged a student is, the more outspoken they are when criticizing what they perceive to be injustices holding them back. If we are being charitable, perhaps this is because the more privileged students have fewer repercussions from society to fear?

not_a_moth 7y ago

From my own experience, no, at the top universities the upper middle class demographic is far more concerned about lining up high paying jobs, networking, and/or working on their general social status than any sort of political activism at all. The activism comes from other groups, if even then. Maybe at small liberal arts colleges or less elite institutions your viewpoint might be true, but I can't speak for that.

high_derivative 7y ago
Just to clarify, I have spent the better part of the last decade at one of the institutions in my response. I have seen generations of students come and go. Your experience may differ but at least where I am, the qualitative change is this: earlier this decade, it's been really only small groups. Now, with students born after 2000 and having grown up fully immersed in social media being on campus, what would have been relatively niche wokeness in 2010 is 'common sense' for many. Including extremely low tolerance for view point diversity.
- ZeroGravitas 7y ago
  Do you have any sources to back up a reduced tolerance for viewpoint diversity, or is it just that their Overton window has shifted away from yours? e.g. would they tolerate (even if they didn't fully agree with it) things on the extreme but opposite end of various political axis from you that you would consider beyond the pale, and vice versa? From your perspective what seems like a narrowing of viewpoint diversity could seem like a blossoming to someone diametrically opposed to you, because each sees the subtler distinctions between factions in their own comfort zone.
mythrwy 7y ago
Reading this I can't help but wonder where people graduating from Oberlin get jobs. Maybe as political campaign people or marketing or something? Just picturing someone walking into a large cement plan for an interview. "Why yes, I do believe I can pull this company into the black within 3 quarters. As you see I have a degree from Oberlin college...". Point being, graduating from there seems it could be not a positive signal but rather a huge red flag for any company engaged in productive pursuits. Like the person has been pre-trained to be aggrieved and look for issues and possibly sue over the smallest of slights. At least that's what would cross my mind as an interviewer.

mmmrk 7y ago

> Especially at elite universities, there is this interesting phenomenon of mostly upper middle class white women from on average the most privileged upbringings in the western hemisphere arriving at a university they (anyone) could only attend by incredible privilege and luck. Yet they arrive fully convinced they have been held back by the patriarchy their entire lives. Same for other groups and their pet causes. This does not have to be a contradiction. 1. If you come from a wealthy family, attending a prestigious university might be par for the course instead of an incredible privilege; you can still be "held back by the patriarchy" (no sarcasm intended). The two things can work in orthogonal ways. 2. They might realize they are privileged and are leveraging their position in an attempt to help others up, i.e. by raising/forcing awareness, a valid thing to do. Feminists aren't the only ones to do it. I perceive these two points to be common themes in "The Guilty Feminist" podcast I like to listen to.