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The Touchscreen Infotainment Systems in New Cars Are a Distracting Mess

163 points by NN88 7y ago

FussyZeus 7y ago
CarPlay is excellently done. The UI is consistent and sensible, and the devices usually respond quickly. However the problems start when the car companies have built their own UI around or over top of CarPlay, and those UIs are often slow to respond, often use resistive touch screens which are difficult to use, and the UI conventions in a Jeep, in a Ford, in a Cadillac might as well exist in different universes. There is no standardization, and therefore no way to get truly comfortable. I've used CarPlay on several vehicles and it's not distracting at all, because I know exactly where everything is, and I can get to it and get what done I need to rapidly and with precision. The issues come when I have to use the rest of the system, which is a complete crapshoot in terms of where to find things like climate controls and adjustments to be made to the car. And for God's sakes, dump those resistive touch screens in the trash.
- NN88 7y ago
  Theres spy shots that the new S Class will be all touch screens. https://www.motor1.com/news/337416/2021-mercedes-s-class-spied/ https://www.motor1.com/news/337416/2021-mercedes-s-class-spi... What the hell are people thinking? The range rovers, Porsche's, and Audis are going that way too. How can this be remotely positive? Its like these cars are made for leasing, ONLY. They can't be thinking about long term reliability.
  - VectorLock 7y ago
    Automakers seem to be in love with leases and they're pushing them hard, so I can see them prioritizing features that makes leasing more attractive.
    - GeorgeTirebiter 7y ago
      1. I think Tesla-style control-via-screen-only is akin to the 'Open Office' -- that is, a stupid trend that will be overcome, eventually, by the saner among us. 1A. Folk who are 'visual first' probably like Control-via-screen-only. I'm a 'tactile' and 'auditory' first guy. I have very good spacial muscle memory. I can close my eyes and dead-on any control in my trusty '95 LS-400. 1B. I would prefer even the common displays (e.g. speed) be given to me via morse code when I push a steering wheel button. At 50 WPM it would take as long as a glance, with no eyes-off-the-road. But I'm weird. 2. Yesterday I turned in after a 3.5 yr lease a VW eGolf. I asked them how well they were selling the vehicles that have come off lease. Guy said they just 'park them in the back' and he's never seen one of them sold. I don't know what they do with them, but I definitely concur that there seems to be a push toward leasing. 2A. The prices for the 2019 eGolfs with more features than the 2016 SEL version were about 10% less. And I thought the 2016 prices were pretty good. I don't understand.
    - artificial 7y ago
      The subscription is coming. Direct from manufacturers side stepping the dealerships. Especially in the era when not owning is perceived as wealthy.
    - delfinom 7y ago
      Leases are a giant unsustainable bubble.
      - VectorLock 7y ago
        There has been some speculation that automakers are going to be left holding the bag but it seems they don't share that fear.
  - neuralRiot 7y ago
    >They can't be thinking about long term reliability. That's been like that for a long time already even if you buy it, once it's out of warranty it's your problem not the manufactures's anymore, they are following the same path of consumer electronics, since they need to come with a new product every year and try to impress the public the only way is making them as flashy and sci-fi-esque as possible even if is unusable or it will last 2 years.
  - dnissley 7y ago
    The fully leveraged life of a luxury car: 1. Lease vehicle to some rich person for the first 3 years who will have few to no problems and return it to the dealership for the next new model once the lease ends. 2. Dump it on some middle-class person making an aspirational purchase as "certified pre-owned". The car starts to break down pretty much the day after it turns 3 since that's how it was designed. The owner will be forced to pay extreme repair bills if they go to the dealership or just live with things continuing to break as the car ages. 3. Once the car hits 6-8 years old it will get resold to the super shady "imports" used car dealership down the road from the original dealership who will then sell it to some poor person making an aspirational purchase on a 9 year loan with exorbitant interest. They will be forced by the high payments to either drive it into the ground or get it repossessed. If repossessed, repeat step 3.
- ghaff 7y ago
  I had a rental with CarPlay a few months back. First time I've had one of the infotainment systems that wasn't a massive exercise in frustration to use. It also wasn't all hot to trot to download various contacts, etc. from my phone like most of them seem to be.
  - sosborn 7y ago
    That’s because CarPlay is essentially a second screen for your phone. Everything runs on the phone, which already has your contacts.
- userbinator 7y ago
  And for God's sakes, dump those resistive touch screens in the trash. They are used not because of cost, but so that drivers with gloved hands can still operate them.
  - NN88 7y ago
    imagine driving this in the winter https://di-uploads-pod1.dealerinspire.com/landroverwillowgrove/uploads/2019/01/2019-Land-Rover-Range-Rover-Sport-Interior-Front-Seating-and-Dashboard-at-Night2.jpg https://di-uploads-pod1.dealerinspire.com/landroverwillowgro... Even the buttons on the wheels are touch "buttons" not physical ones
  - gumby 7y ago
    And for their ability to survive extremes of temperature and humidity. Awful to use, but they do continue to operate. But manual controls (with differently-shaped knobs) is a superior system.
- m463 7y ago
  remember the rule: hardware companies suck at software. surprisingly, standard car audio systems are almost universally better than aftermarket ones. And if you've ever disconnected your car battery and come back to a factory reset aftermarket audio system, in demo mode, that goes x100.
- sjwright 7y ago
  > And for God's sakes, dump those resistive touch screens in the trash. Can I please make a case for the opposite being true? Capacitive touch is a million times better for a tablet, but resistive touch screens are far better suited to touch input while driving because they respond to pressure, not mere presence. This means it's far less distracting to use. _________Capacitive touch_________ 1. Look at screen 2. Observe what you want to press 3. Move your finger to a space in mid-air in front of where it needs to be 4. Refine your finger's alignment 5. Touch the screen 6. Look away __________Resistive touch__________ 1. Glance momentarily to observe what you want to press; return eyes to road 2. Move finger where it needs to be, using friction between finger and screen to hold it in place 3. Glance momentarily at your finger's position; return eyes to road 4. Refine your finger's alignment 5. Push your finger at the screen
  - ak217 7y ago
    Neither capacitive nor resistive touch screens have an acceptable use in a moving car. Drivers should use the rotary knob and voice controls instead.
    - sjwright 7y ago
      Rotary knobs are worse because you need to look at the screen to watch the highlighted element jump around until it lands on whatever it is you want selected. To be fair, they're the least bad of all the centre-console input devices. And they're an acceptable option if the screen is placed outside comfortable reach of the seated driver. But they're still inferior to a well-positioned capacitive touch screen.
zaroth 7y ago
There are obviously a hundred ways to make a touchscreen terrible. Laggy, distracting, too small touch points, bad touch sensitivity, low contrast, overly nested menus, etc. But “haptic feedback” isn’t a panacea and there are plenty of ways to make buttons that you still have to look at to use effectively. My old 2006 Infiniti G35 which I had for 12 years, I would still have to look to turn on the front/rear defogger. Or even to adjust fan speed. The buttons were arranged in a flat row and there was no way to distinguish one from the adjacent without looking. Even with more depth you would still glance over to find your target and confirm the state change. The large touchscreen in my TM3 makes navigation an absolute joy. When I’m at a complex intersection, pinch to zoom in and I can easily see at a glance what to do. This beats squinting at an iPhone by a massive margin. I never thought in-car GPS made any sense at all and activately hated the systems I had seen in Audis and Mercedes. Dialing in destinations was a huge pain and the screens were small and non-interactive making the system worse than a phone-in-hand. So it’s obvious to me that large touch-screen interfaces can be joyful and safe, and even enhance safety in some cases. There are also two massive benefits which most articles miss or just gloss over, and that is upgradability, and dynamic state. My TM3 shipped without blind spot warning, or lane departure warning, or Navigate in Autopilot, or a dashcam, or Sentry Mode, and dozens of other features that have since been added. Legacy manufacturers want to sell you a new car every time they add a new feature. Knobs are great for this because it’s pretty hard to shoehorn a new feature into an existing hard-labeled set of knobs. A touch interface—done right—can evolve over time to support dozens of new features which improve the driving experience. A car that gets better (and faster, and longer range) every month is no small wonder. Rather I think it’s the bane of the legacy model and the old guard is terrified by it, because their entire ecosystem isn’t set up for it. The second key advantage is dynamic state — or rather, the idea that the system state can change independently from the knob. Now it is possible to design certain types of knobs and switches which can accommodate this type of state change, but there is a whole host of knob and switch designs which are outright excluded if you want to support that case without adding a motor to physically move the knob/switch (which would be ridiculous). And these “stateless” knobs and switches tend to be the ones which provide significantly less feedback and are more likely to need to be looked at to be manipulated / confirm the state change. Of course it’s important to note that it’s not all or nothing. The reality is that knobs on or right around the steering wheel will always have a place for activating the most common features. Several articles miss, for example, that TM3 does have a button to activate the wipers. The screen then automatically shows the interval status (which on mine is always just ‘Auto’) And the most useful button is the one you can eliminate completely by automating it out of existence. Like that complex multi-position dial so many cars have to the left of the steering wheel to configure the headlights. I see cars all the time driving at night with the switch inadvertently set to daytime running mode. There’s no dial in the TM3, because the lights just always do the right thing.
inflatableDodo 7y ago
Given that aesthetic experience is something the automotive industry actually prioritises, I supect the security problems with these things is going to be much worse than the usability.
userbinator 7y ago
I wonder if there will be a resurgence of "dumb" cars once people get tired of and become more aware of the disadvantages of these overly-complex systems, like has happened with phones; IMHO one of the very few things a touchscreen is useful for in a car is a GPS, because that's a relatively complex system which can't really be simplified to physical controls. Everything else should really be knobs and switches. How much of a market would there be for a "dumb EV", basically the exact opposite of a Tesla but still electric, with only the bare minimum of electronics and software? Imagine a car whose interior looks like one from the late 70s/early 80s, with all analogue controls and indicators, except that it's actually an EV. The other big disadvantage is the failure mode: if the screen fails, a whole set of functionality becomes inaccessible, whereas a single switch failure won't affect any others.
- grawprog 7y ago
  What you just described is the car i'd ideally like to own. I don't know much about teslas but aren't the motors and.much of the internals themselves computer driven? Without such a display is it possible to operate them? How much of the computer systems are tied into operation of the vehicle itself? Sorry if i'm not understanding correctly, i don't know much about them other than what i've read, but from what i understand, the electric motors themselves are a smart system the way they're currently used in electric vehicles. Is it possible to make a completely dumb electric car?
  - neuralRiot 7y ago
    The drivetrain the body and the infotainment are controlled by separate somewhat independent units if you lose the infotainment even if it's used to set the features on or off they should work, i haven't tested a tesla but most other cars run fine without it in some cases you just lose HVAC.
    - grawprog 7y ago
      Ok. I honestly had no idea.
    - 7y ago
kensai 7y ago
I wonder if Tesla's silly games will be banned anytime soon.
- jm4 7y ago
  The one car that actually gets software right?
  - Fins 7y ago
    Tesla fanboys can be quite annoying, true, but I don't think actively killing them is a "right thing".
- ThatPlayer 7y ago
  Why would they be? They're not playable when the car is in motion. I believe there's a car that has an HDMI input for that when the car is not moving
  - rightbyte 7y ago
    Putting Easter Eggs in ECU software is kinda ... reckless? The display UI shows velocity, warnings etc so it's not a like a entertainment and navigation system. Why add useless software and the mandatory bugs too it.
ChikkaChiChi 7y ago
All I want is a button easily available from my steering wheel to talk to the mobile assistant I'm connected to over Bluetooth. I know it's far too much to ask of any company to support both Android and Apple, so this is my compromise. Tesla's infotainment isn't horrible, but I should be able to use voice to do all the things they have shifted into a non-tactile interface.
- matthewmcg 7y ago
  We installed the CarPlay retrofit for our recent model Mazda CX-5 and it does exactly this. The CarPlay interface completely takes over the vehicle interface and the buttons are mapped in a way that makes sense: home takes you to the home screen/springboard, nav opens Apple Maps or whatever navigation application is currently running, and music opens whatever media application was last selected. Most importantly the voice assistant button on the steering wheel triggers Siri. Best $250 I’ve ever spent and the utility of this keeps improving as more apps add CarPlay support.
  - robbiep 7y ago
    I’ve done the same thing on my 3 and agree. Also quite like using the knob to select compared to touching
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- ratsbane 7y ago
  That's exactly how the Tesla system works. You press the right thumbwheel on the steering wheel, (or the button above it on the S) and say "play rolling stones" or "play BBC World Service News" or whatever, and it just does. The left thumbwheel is the volume and you push it to the right to skip to the next song or station. The right thumbwheel changes the speed while on cruise control and I do sometimes mix them up and turn the volume up when I want to go faster or visa-versa.
akeck 7y ago
Having dealt with various tech distractions in cars since before the introduction of cell phones, I don't see how the NTSB hasn't banned touch screens. My older car has a standard radio (dials and buttons), and I still almost rear-ended someone while changing radio stations after a long day.
micheljansen 7y ago
I spent a year researching ways for making touch screen interfaces usable without demanding visual attention (in a medical context, almost as fun). It’s really really hard to beat tactile, physical knobs and switches. Tesla can do way better than they are doing. Operating the radio etc. on their touch screen is virtually impossible without taking your eyes off the road for dangerous amounts of time. Despite knowing this, I still ordered a Model 3.
- BlackRing 7y ago
  I'd like to mod my Tesla Model 3 to remove that huge screen and put the screen on the dashboard in a smaller screen behind the steering wheel, and the controls on the steering wheel itself. Maybe even with a reflective visual off the windshield close to the dashboard so the driver doesn't have to take their eyes off the road. The research for this hasn't yielded much since I can't alter the UI at all.
  - NotSammyHagar 7y ago
    your desired request for screen behind the wheel is available of course. This is known as the model s.
- moduspol 7y ago
  You can still perform most common radio functions with the physical buttons on the steering wheel in the Model 3, and there's also voice control.
whenchamenia 7y ago
Tactile switches should be mandatory.
nabla9 7y ago
And everyone seems to use blue colors in car displays. They leave color aftereffects when you look displays and then quickly trough windshield. Especially in the dark.
- xgulfie 7y ago
  Yes, red is much better at night (IIRC it doesn't dilate your pupils as much). But blue is the trendier color for lighting, and I don't suspect many people take test-drives at night.
lambdasquirrel 7y ago
Am I using the same system that the reviewers are using? These kinds of assessments are a bit of a red herring. If you have to use the touchscreen you’ve already lost. But when I drove a rental car recently, CarPlay+Siri pretty much took care of it all for me, including responding to a text while I was driving. To my understanding, Android Auto may even be better because of Google’s superior voice recognition. The touchscreen is there to convey more information, not to be used as a means of control.
bretthopper 7y ago
The new 2019 Mazda3 has inset the screen and pushed it further back so you can't touch it and it's not even a touchscreen. I've been researching the car and it comes up in every review. The reaction seems pretty split on it so far even though everyone knows why Mazda has done it (less distraction, safer). It's a pretty bold move considering most other cars and touch and even going with bigger Tesla-style screens. https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-purging-touchscreens-from-its-vehicles https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-pur...
- max76 7y ago
  I have a few years older model Mazda 3 that has a similar system, although much less stylish. I like it for two reasons. I don't glance down when adjusting the radio or checking GPS and my eyes stay more or less on the road. The knob in the center console is a very intuitive control system that doesn't require very much attention or reaching to operate. The whole system is clearly designed to offer the full functionality of Android Auto or Apple Car while minimizing the possibilities distraction.
- rewtraw 7y ago
  I recently purchased the 2019 Mazda 3 and absolutely love this about it. All controls are physical buttons/knobs that are sensibly placed so the driver can access them without reaching. The screen is nice and big without being obnoxious, and the built-in infotainment UI is very modern and easy to use. And it also supports CarPlay which is wonderful.
fright 7y ago
I've always been at a complete loss as to why and how we ended up with the archaic and clunky in-car systems we have today. If you look at a smartphone from 5 years ago and a vehicle from 5 years ago, the capability of the phone is going to dwarf that of the in-car infotainment system. In all honestly, that 5 year old phone will likely out perform most of the infotainment systems in vehicles rolling off the assembly line right now. I don't even want to think what consumers are being charged on a line item basis for the outdated hardware in vehicles. I still can't figure out why car companies are even attempting to build these systems themselves (besides profit, I suppose). Pretty much every American has a phone in their pocket that is much more capable than any infotainment system, and it specializes in the things we mainly want from an infotainment system (music, maps/gps, txt, calls). Wouldn't it be so much better if vehicles just had a barebones screen in the dash with a connector for smartphones to power the system? You could even have the screen size mirror the resolution of the phone so it's just scaled up and rotated. Doesn't seem like much else would have to be done. I'm sure I'm over simplifying things to some extent, but it still seems like a setup like this would be much easier to produce and much better to use than anything coming from car companies who are typically pretty terrible at software and UX design. *of course not all vehicles are for Americans and not everyone has a smartphone.
- judge2020 7y ago
  A big reason is the backup camera requirement[0]. Why just have a screen for the backup camera when it's marginal to add on the other features. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backup_camera#Mandates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backup_camera#Mandates
  - fright 7y ago
    I wasn't thinking about the cameras I guess. Still seems like it would be better to just include what's required and then let a phone handle the software.
    - cardiffspaceman 7y ago
      My newest car is a lousy old 2015 model. I rented a small (2018?) SUV recently and it allowed some of the apps on my phone to take over the screen. I discovered this by accident because my goal was to have the phone connected to the USB for power while I ran the navigation app on it. It was great for navigating to a known destination. It was not so great for finding the nearest Starbucks. My 2015 piece of junk requires a $500 p.a. subscription to receive traffic data for the navigation system. That is about 5 new Garmins a year, or 1.25 Pixel 3a's, a phone I don't own but have heard good things about.
appleflaxen 7y ago
how practical is a heads-up display? that's what I want for ease of use, safety, aesthetics.
- kelp 7y ago
  I just got a 2019 Volvo V60 and it has a HUD. It’s somewhat customizable, and displays the current speed limit, your speed, an optional warning if you’re following too close, and even GPS nav instructions. Pretty nice. The car does also have a huge distracting touch screen.
sizzle 7y ago
I want to just speak to the car like I do with Alexa or Google Assistant and have it work the same in the car and in the house. How hard is this to accomplish in 2019? Me: (Alexa/Okay Google/hey Siri) - set car temperature to 70 degrees... Car: Okay, temperature is set to 70 degrees No buttons, no unintuitive touchscreens, no taking eyes off road, no taking hands off steering wheel, just simply getting what you ask for. This technology is baked into phones already so this isn't exactly rocket science or some futuristic sci-fi technology, car manufacturers need to get with the 21st century and allow this level of integrations. Anyone know why it's taking so long to get this functionality?
- sangnoir 7y ago
  > Me: (Alexa/Okay Google/hey Siri) - set car temperature to 70 degrees... >Car: Okay, temperature is set to 70 degrees You might want to pre-order the upcoming Volvo Polestar 2, as it has Android Automotive[1] (not to be confused[2] with "Android Auto"!) which has this functionality 1. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/02/the-volvo-polestar-2-is-the-first-google-android-car/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/02/the-volvo-polestar-2... 2. Whoever named this project was probably in the same role at Microsoft in the '90s
  - sizzle 7y ago
    Really cool, thanks for sharing!
ride-dat-ass 7y ago
If ever there were a place to start with an experiment in applying a "code of conduct" and ethics statement, it's here. It's like diet MCAS for infants and toddlers. Instead of a plane falling out of the sky, due to shoddy software and use case scenario documentation, you get frustrated drivers pulling over to wait out laggy animated transitions and directional screen swipes in order to find the fucking skip track buttons and shuffle/repeat toggles. Did I say pull over and wait? Oh, sorry, I meant continue to drive with one eye on the road, dab and paw at unresponsive virtual button graphics and curse at the blindingly bright infotainment monitor in a dark cab at night, in the rain, while changing lanes in dense traffic at 80 miles an hour, between sips of hot coffee and brake checks from the asshole who won't speed up or get the fuck out of the way, despite being tailgated to less than a car length for the past fifteen miles.
sl1ck731 7y ago
I have an Alfa Giulia and the knobs are amazing. It is always in reach of my hand since they are located right in front of the gear shifter and flipping through the menus became intuitive after a couple hours. No fingerprints is an added bonus. I don't have the nav option, so inputting addresses or other long things might be cumbersome (but likely unnecessary with Android Auto or the Apple version). Image of the controls for those curious: https://car-images.bauersecure.com/pagefiles/85459/alfa_romeo_stelvio_porsche_macan_06.jpg https://car-images.bauersecure.com/pagefiles/85459/alfa_rome... The large round dial is used for most of the menu navigation. The small one to the right is for changing radio station/tracks and volume. By comparison, my fiances Jetta's touch screen was pretty cool when we first got it. But then noticing how unresponsive it was, misclicking, and dirty it gets I don't think I will go for a touch screen again personally.
- HiroshiSan 7y ago
  Not to mention the Giulia is gorgeous.
jdpigeon 7y ago
I think this guy is pretty brave for admitting he listens to Pitbull's radio station. My skin crawled with embarrassment reading that.
peterlk 7y ago
I too have a huge problem with touch screens in cars. Having tactile knobs means I can find things on the dash without taking my eyes off the road. The thing that I think most of the comments are missing is the thing that powers all tech... Ads There is currently a push behind the scenes to own the in-car advertising system. This is a reason why Google is making a play for an automobile OS [0]. I desperately hope that car manufacturers return to physical buttons, but in-car ads are offer huge potential financial upside. You could sell a car at a loss to consumers and still come out ahead... [0] https://www.android.com/auto/ https://www.android.com/auto/
SN76477 7y ago
bring back tactile interfaces please
blueboo 7y ago
I’ve never understood why all the centre-dash controls have, since time immemorial, been angled away from the driver. Radio control is one plausible compromise but defroster? Navigation?
netsharc 7y ago
Seems to be a lot of words for what we know already: knobs and switches good, touchscreen bad.
rkagerer 7y ago
As an example of exactly the sort of broken design thinking that will make cars unsafe, I'd like to repeat a comment I made in 2017: In one of the talks at Google I/O last year a VP from Audi (or Volvo?) spoke in a thick and lofty German accent about how "ve haf completely oferhauled ze driver exzperienze". He played a sexy video clip showcasing their new Android infotainment system (something like https://youtu.be/h_7_fKJ0PNs https://youtu.be/h_7_fKJ0PNs), and the first thing I noticed is how they'd taken away my traditional temperature knobs and replaced them with digital touchscreen ones. They looked just like physical ones, and were in the exact same place you would expect (https://9to5google.com/2017/05/15/android-cars-audi/ https://9to5google.com/2017/05/15/android-cars-audi/). So, I've gained absolutely nothing, and now I have to take my eyes off the road and look down at the stupid console just to change the temperature. TLDR: Tacticle feedback is a Good Thing(tm) and designers should cultivate - not fight - muscle memory.

163 points by NN88 7y ago

CarPlay is excellently done. The UI is consistent and sensible, and the devices usually respond quickly. However the problems start when the car companies have built their own UI around or over top of CarPlay, and those UIs are often slow to respond, often use resistive touch screens which are difficult to use, and the UI conventions in a Jeep, in a Ford, in a Cadillac might as well exist in different universes. There is no standardization, and therefore no way to get truly comfortable. I've used CarPlay on several vehicles and it's not distracting at all, because I know exactly where everything is, and I can get to it and get what done I need to rapidly and with precision. The issues come when I have to use the rest of the system, which is a complete crapshoot in terms of where to find things like climate controls and adjustments to be made to the car. And for God's sakes, dump those resistive touch screens in the trash.

NN88 7y ago
Theres spy shots that the new S Class will be all touch screens. https://www.motor1.com/news/337416/2021-mercedes-s-class-spied/ https://www.motor1.com/news/337416/2021-mercedes-s-class-spi... What the hell are people thinking? The range rovers, Porsche's, and Audis are going that way too. How can this be remotely positive? Its like these cars are made for leasing, ONLY. They can't be thinking about long term reliability.
- VectorLock 7y ago
  Automakers seem to be in love with leases and they're pushing them hard, so I can see them prioritizing features that makes leasing more attractive.
  - GeorgeTirebiter 7y ago
    1. I think Tesla-style control-via-screen-only is akin to the 'Open Office' -- that is, a stupid trend that will be overcome, eventually, by the saner among us. 1A. Folk who are 'visual first' probably like Control-via-screen-only. I'm a 'tactile' and 'auditory' first guy. I have very good spacial muscle memory. I can close my eyes and dead-on any control in my trusty '95 LS-400. 1B. I would prefer even the common displays (e.g. speed) be given to me via morse code when I push a steering wheel button. At 50 WPM it would take as long as a glance, with no eyes-off-the-road. But I'm weird. 2. Yesterday I turned in after a 3.5 yr lease a VW eGolf. I asked them how well they were selling the vehicles that have come off lease. Guy said they just 'park them in the back' and he's never seen one of them sold. I don't know what they do with them, but I definitely concur that there seems to be a push toward leasing. 2A. The prices for the 2019 eGolfs with more features than the 2016 SEL version were about 10% less. And I thought the 2016 prices were pretty good. I don't understand.
  - artificial 7y ago
    The subscription is coming. Direct from manufacturers side stepping the dealerships. Especially in the era when not owning is perceived as wealthy.
  - delfinom 7y ago
    Leases are a giant unsustainable bubble.
    - VectorLock 7y ago
      There has been some speculation that automakers are going to be left holding the bag but it seems they don't share that fear.
- neuralRiot 7y ago
  >They can't be thinking about long term reliability. That's been like that for a long time already even if you buy it, once it's out of warranty it's your problem not the manufactures's anymore, they are following the same path of consumer electronics, since they need to come with a new product every year and try to impress the public the only way is making them as flashy and sci-fi-esque as possible even if is unusable or it will last 2 years.
- dnissley 7y ago
  The fully leveraged life of a luxury car: 1. Lease vehicle to some rich person for the first 3 years who will have few to no problems and return it to the dealership for the next new model once the lease ends. 2. Dump it on some middle-class person making an aspirational purchase as "certified pre-owned". The car starts to break down pretty much the day after it turns 3 since that's how it was designed. The owner will be forced to pay extreme repair bills if they go to the dealership or just live with things continuing to break as the car ages. 3. Once the car hits 6-8 years old it will get resold to the super shady "imports" used car dealership down the road from the original dealership who will then sell it to some poor person making an aspirational purchase on a 9 year loan with exorbitant interest. They will be forced by the high payments to either drive it into the ground or get it repossessed. If repossessed, repeat step 3.
ghaff 7y ago
I had a rental with CarPlay a few months back. First time I've had one of the infotainment systems that wasn't a massive exercise in frustration to use. It also wasn't all hot to trot to download various contacts, etc. from my phone like most of them seem to be.
- sosborn 7y ago
  That’s because CarPlay is essentially a second screen for your phone. Everything runs on the phone, which already has your contacts.
userbinator 7y ago
And for God's sakes, dump those resistive touch screens in the trash. They are used not because of cost, but so that drivers with gloved hands can still operate them.
- NN88 7y ago
  imagine driving this in the winter https://di-uploads-pod1.dealerinspire.com/landroverwillowgrove/uploads/2019/01/2019-Land-Rover-Range-Rover-Sport-Interior-Front-Seating-and-Dashboard-at-Night2.jpg https://di-uploads-pod1.dealerinspire.com/landroverwillowgro... Even the buttons on the wheels are touch "buttons" not physical ones
- gumby 7y ago
  And for their ability to survive extremes of temperature and humidity. Awful to use, but they do continue to operate. But manual controls (with differently-shaped knobs) is a superior system.
m463 7y ago
remember the rule: hardware companies suck at software. surprisingly, standard car audio systems are almost universally better than aftermarket ones. And if you've ever disconnected your car battery and come back to a factory reset aftermarket audio system, in demo mode, that goes x100.
sjwright 7y ago
> And for God's sakes, dump those resistive touch screens in the trash. Can I please make a case for the opposite being true? Capacitive touch is a million times better for a tablet, but resistive touch screens are far better suited to touch input while driving because they respond to pressure, not mere presence. This means it's far less distracting to use. _________Capacitive touch_________ 1. Look at screen 2. Observe what you want to press 3. Move your finger to a space in mid-air in front of where it needs to be 4. Refine your finger's alignment 5. Touch the screen 6. Look away __________Resistive touch__________ 1. Glance momentarily to observe what you want to press; return eyes to road 2. Move finger where it needs to be, using friction between finger and screen to hold it in place 3. Glance momentarily at your finger's position; return eyes to road 4. Refine your finger's alignment 5. Push your finger at the screen
- ak217 7y ago
  Neither capacitive nor resistive touch screens have an acceptable use in a moving car. Drivers should use the rotary knob and voice controls instead.
  - sjwright 7y ago
    Rotary knobs are worse because you need to look at the screen to watch the highlighted element jump around until it lands on whatever it is you want selected. To be fair, they're the least bad of all the centre-console input devices. And they're an acceptable option if the screen is placed outside comfortable reach of the seated driver. But they're still inferior to a well-positioned capacitive touch screen.

zaroth 7y ago

There are obviously a hundred ways to make a touchscreen terrible. Laggy, distracting, too small touch points, bad touch sensitivity, low contrast, overly nested menus, etc. But “haptic feedback” isn’t a panacea and there are plenty of ways to make buttons that you still have to look at to use effectively. My old 2006 Infiniti G35 which I had for 12 years, I would still have to look to turn on the front/rear defogger. Or even to adjust fan speed. The buttons were arranged in a flat row and there was no way to distinguish one from the adjacent without looking. Even with more depth you would still glance over to find your target and confirm the state change. The large touchscreen in my TM3 makes navigation an absolute joy. When I’m at a complex intersection, pinch to zoom in and I can easily see at a glance what to do. This beats squinting at an iPhone by a massive margin. I never thought in-car GPS made any sense at all and activately hated the systems I had seen in Audis and Mercedes. Dialing in destinations was a huge pain and the screens were small and non-interactive making the system worse than a phone-in-hand. So it’s obvious to me that large touch-screen interfaces can be joyful and safe, and even enhance safety in some cases. There are also two massive benefits which most articles miss or just gloss over, and that is upgradability, and dynamic state. My TM3 shipped without blind spot warning, or lane departure warning, or Navigate in Autopilot, or a dashcam, or Sentry Mode, and dozens of other features that have since been added. Legacy manufacturers want to sell you a new car every time they add a new feature. Knobs are great for this because it’s pretty hard to shoehorn a new feature into an existing hard-labeled set of knobs. A touch interface—done right—can evolve over time to support dozens of new features which improve the driving experience. A car that gets better (and faster, and longer range) every month is no small wonder. Rather I think it’s the bane of the legacy model and the old guard is terrified by it, because their entire ecosystem isn’t set up for it. The second key advantage is dynamic state — or rather, the idea that the system state can change independently from the knob. Now it is possible to design certain types of knobs and switches which can accommodate this type of state change, but there is a whole host of knob and switch designs which are outright excluded if you want to support that case without adding a motor to physically move the knob/switch (which would be ridiculous). And these “stateless” knobs and switches tend to be the ones which provide significantly less feedback and are more likely to need to be looked at to be manipulated / confirm the state change. Of course it’s important to note that it’s not all or nothing. The reality is that knobs on or right around the steering wheel will always have a place for activating the most common features. Several articles miss, for example, that TM3 does have a button to activate the wipers. The screen then automatically shows the interval status (which on mine is always just ‘Auto’) And the most useful button is the one you can eliminate completely by automating it out of existence. Like that complex multi-position dial so many cars have to the left of the steering wheel to configure the headlights. I see cars all the time driving at night with the switch inadvertently set to daytime running mode. There’s no dial in the TM3, because the lights just always do the right thing.

inflatableDodo 7y ago

Given that aesthetic experience is something the automotive industry actually prioritises, I supect the security problems with these things is going to be much worse than the usability.

userbinator 7y ago

I wonder if there will be a resurgence of "dumb" cars once people get tired of and become more aware of the disadvantages of these overly-complex systems, like has happened with phones; IMHO one of the very few things a touchscreen is useful for in a car is a GPS, because that's a relatively complex system which can't really be simplified to physical controls. Everything else should really be knobs and switches. How much of a market would there be for a "dumb EV", basically the exact opposite of a Tesla but still electric, with only the bare minimum of electronics and software? Imagine a car whose interior looks like one from the late 70s/early 80s, with all analogue controls and indicators, except that it's actually an EV. The other big disadvantage is the failure mode: if the screen fails, a whole set of functionality becomes inaccessible, whereas a single switch failure won't affect any others.

grawprog 7y ago
What you just described is the car i'd ideally like to own. I don't know much about teslas but aren't the motors and.much of the internals themselves computer driven? Without such a display is it possible to operate them? How much of the computer systems are tied into operation of the vehicle itself? Sorry if i'm not understanding correctly, i don't know much about them other than what i've read, but from what i understand, the electric motors themselves are a smart system the way they're currently used in electric vehicles. Is it possible to make a completely dumb electric car?
- neuralRiot 7y ago
  The drivetrain the body and the infotainment are controlled by separate somewhat independent units if you lose the infotainment even if it's used to set the features on or off they should work, i haven't tested a tesla but most other cars run fine without it in some cases you just lose HVAC.
  - grawprog 7y ago
    Ok. I honestly had no idea.
  - 7y ago

kensai 7y ago

I wonder if Tesla's silly games will be banned anytime soon.

jm4 7y ago
The one car that actually gets software right?
- Fins 7y ago
  Tesla fanboys can be quite annoying, true, but I don't think actively killing them is a "right thing".
ThatPlayer 7y ago
Why would they be? They're not playable when the car is in motion. I believe there's a car that has an HDMI input for that when the car is not moving
- rightbyte 7y ago
  Putting Easter Eggs in ECU software is kinda ... reckless? The display UI shows velocity, warnings etc so it's not a like a entertainment and navigation system. Why add useless software and the mandatory bugs too it.

ChikkaChiChi 7y ago

All I want is a button easily available from my steering wheel to talk to the mobile assistant I'm connected to over Bluetooth. I know it's far too much to ask of any company to support both Android and Apple, so this is my compromise. Tesla's infotainment isn't horrible, but I should be able to use voice to do all the things they have shifted into a non-tactile interface.

matthewmcg 7y ago
We installed the CarPlay retrofit for our recent model Mazda CX-5 and it does exactly this. The CarPlay interface completely takes over the vehicle interface and the buttons are mapped in a way that makes sense: home takes you to the home screen/springboard, nav opens Apple Maps or whatever navigation application is currently running, and music opens whatever media application was last selected. Most importantly the voice assistant button on the steering wheel triggers Siri. Best $250 I’ve ever spent and the utility of this keeps improving as more apps add CarPlay support.
- robbiep 7y ago
  I’ve done the same thing on my 3 and agree. Also quite like using the knob to select compared to touching
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
ratsbane 7y ago
That's exactly how the Tesla system works. You press the right thumbwheel on the steering wheel, (or the button above it on the S) and say "play rolling stones" or "play BBC World Service News" or whatever, and it just does. The left thumbwheel is the volume and you push it to the right to skip to the next song or station. The right thumbwheel changes the speed while on cruise control and I do sometimes mix them up and turn the volume up when I want to go faster or visa-versa.

akeck 7y ago

Having dealt with various tech distractions in cars since before the introduction of cell phones, I don't see how the NTSB hasn't banned touch screens. My older car has a standard radio (dials and buttons), and I still almost rear-ended someone while changing radio stations after a long day.

micheljansen 7y ago

I spent a year researching ways for making touch screen interfaces usable without demanding visual attention (in a medical context, almost as fun). It’s really really hard to beat tactile, physical knobs and switches. Tesla can do way better than they are doing. Operating the radio etc. on their touch screen is virtually impossible without taking your eyes off the road for dangerous amounts of time. Despite knowing this, I still ordered a Model 3.

BlackRing 7y ago
I'd like to mod my Tesla Model 3 to remove that huge screen and put the screen on the dashboard in a smaller screen behind the steering wheel, and the controls on the steering wheel itself. Maybe even with a reflective visual off the windshield close to the dashboard so the driver doesn't have to take their eyes off the road. The research for this hasn't yielded much since I can't alter the UI at all.
- NotSammyHagar 7y ago
  your desired request for screen behind the wheel is available of course. This is known as the model s.
moduspol 7y ago
You can still perform most common radio functions with the physical buttons on the steering wheel in the Model 3, and there's also voice control.

whenchamenia 7y ago

Tactile switches should be mandatory.

nabla9 7y ago

And everyone seems to use blue colors in car displays. They leave color aftereffects when you look displays and then quickly trough windshield. Especially in the dark.

xgulfie 7y ago
Yes, red is much better at night (IIRC it doesn't dilate your pupils as much). But blue is the trendier color for lighting, and I don't suspect many people take test-drives at night.

lambdasquirrel 7y ago

Am I using the same system that the reviewers are using? These kinds of assessments are a bit of a red herring. If you have to use the touchscreen you’ve already lost. But when I drove a rental car recently, CarPlay+Siri pretty much took care of it all for me, including responding to a text while I was driving. To my understanding, Android Auto may even be better because of Google’s superior voice recognition. The touchscreen is there to convey more information, not to be used as a means of control.

bretthopper 7y ago

The new 2019 Mazda3 has inset the screen and pushed it further back so you can't touch it and it's not even a touchscreen. I've been researching the car and it comes up in every review. The reaction seems pretty split on it so far even though everyone knows why Mazda has done it (less distraction, safer). It's a pretty bold move considering most other cars and touch and even going with bigger Tesla-style screens. https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-purging-touchscreens-from-its-vehicles https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1121372_why-mazda-is-pur...

max76 7y ago
I have a few years older model Mazda 3 that has a similar system, although much less stylish. I like it for two reasons. I don't glance down when adjusting the radio or checking GPS and my eyes stay more or less on the road. The knob in the center console is a very intuitive control system that doesn't require very much attention or reaching to operate. The whole system is clearly designed to offer the full functionality of Android Auto or Apple Car while minimizing the possibilities distraction.
rewtraw 7y ago
I recently purchased the 2019 Mazda 3 and absolutely love this about it. All controls are physical buttons/knobs that are sensibly placed so the driver can access them without reaching. The screen is nice and big without being obnoxious, and the built-in infotainment UI is very modern and easy to use. And it also supports CarPlay which is wonderful.

fright 7y ago

I've always been at a complete loss as to why and how we ended up with the archaic and clunky in-car systems we have today. If you look at a smartphone from 5 years ago and a vehicle from 5 years ago, the capability of the phone is going to dwarf that of the in-car infotainment system. In all honestly, that 5 year old phone will likely out perform most of the infotainment systems in vehicles rolling off the assembly line right now. I don't even want to think what consumers are being charged on a line item basis for the outdated hardware in vehicles. I still can't figure out why car companies are even attempting to build these systems themselves (besides profit, I suppose). Pretty much every American has a phone in their pocket that is much more capable than any infotainment system, and it specializes in the things we mainly want from an infotainment system (music, maps/gps, txt, calls). Wouldn't it be so much better if vehicles just had a barebones screen in the dash with a connector for smartphones to power the system? You could even have the screen size mirror the resolution of the phone so it's just scaled up and rotated. Doesn't seem like much else would have to be done. I'm sure I'm over simplifying things to some extent, but it still seems like a setup like this would be much easier to produce and much better to use than anything coming from car companies who are typically pretty terrible at software and UX design. *of course not all vehicles are for Americans and not everyone has a smartphone.

judge2020 7y ago
A big reason is the backup camera requirement[0]. Why just have a screen for the backup camera when it's marginal to add on the other features. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backup_camera#Mandates https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backup_camera#Mandates
- fright 7y ago
  I wasn't thinking about the cameras I guess. Still seems like it would be better to just include what's required and then let a phone handle the software.
  - cardiffspaceman 7y ago
    My newest car is a lousy old 2015 model. I rented a small (2018?) SUV recently and it allowed some of the apps on my phone to take over the screen. I discovered this by accident because my goal was to have the phone connected to the USB for power while I ran the navigation app on it. It was great for navigating to a known destination. It was not so great for finding the nearest Starbucks. My 2015 piece of junk requires a $500 p.a. subscription to receive traffic data for the navigation system. That is about 5 new Garmins a year, or 1.25 Pixel 3a's, a phone I don't own but have heard good things about.

appleflaxen 7y ago

how practical is a heads-up display? that's what I want for ease of use, safety, aesthetics.

kelp 7y ago
I just got a 2019 Volvo V60 and it has a HUD. It’s somewhat customizable, and displays the current speed limit, your speed, an optional warning if you’re following too close, and even GPS nav instructions. Pretty nice. The car does also have a huge distracting touch screen.

sizzle 7y ago

I want to just speak to the car like I do with Alexa or Google Assistant and have it work the same in the car and in the house. How hard is this to accomplish in 2019? Me: (Alexa/Okay Google/hey Siri) - set car temperature to 70 degrees... Car: Okay, temperature is set to 70 degrees No buttons, no unintuitive touchscreens, no taking eyes off road, no taking hands off steering wheel, just simply getting what you ask for. This technology is baked into phones already so this isn't exactly rocket science or some futuristic sci-fi technology, car manufacturers need to get with the 21st century and allow this level of integrations. Anyone know why it's taking so long to get this functionality?

sangnoir 7y ago
> Me: (Alexa/Okay Google/hey Siri) - set car temperature to 70 degrees... >Car: Okay, temperature is set to 70 degrees You might want to pre-order the upcoming Volvo Polestar 2, as it has Android Automotive[1] (not to be confused[2] with "Android Auto"!) which has this functionality 1. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/02/the-volvo-polestar-2-is-the-first-google-android-car/ https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2019/02/the-volvo-polestar-2... 2. Whoever named this project was probably in the same role at Microsoft in the '90s
- sizzle 7y ago
  Really cool, thanks for sharing!

ride-dat-ass 7y ago

If ever there were a place to start with an experiment in applying a "code of conduct" and ethics statement, it's here. It's like diet MCAS for infants and toddlers. Instead of a plane falling out of the sky, due to shoddy software and use case scenario documentation, you get frustrated drivers pulling over to wait out laggy animated transitions and directional screen swipes in order to find the fucking skip track buttons and shuffle/repeat toggles. Did I say pull over and wait? Oh, sorry, I meant continue to drive with one eye on the road, dab and paw at unresponsive virtual button graphics and curse at the blindingly bright infotainment monitor in a dark cab at night, in the rain, while changing lanes in dense traffic at 80 miles an hour, between sips of hot coffee and brake checks from the asshole who won't speed up or get the fuck out of the way, despite being tailgated to less than a car length for the past fifteen miles.

sl1ck731 7y ago

I have an Alfa Giulia and the knobs are amazing. It is always in reach of my hand since they are located right in front of the gear shifter and flipping through the menus became intuitive after a couple hours. No fingerprints is an added bonus. I don't have the nav option, so inputting addresses or other long things might be cumbersome (but likely unnecessary with Android Auto or the Apple version). Image of the controls for those curious: https://car-images.bauersecure.com/pagefiles/85459/alfa_romeo_stelvio_porsche_macan_06.jpg https://car-images.bauersecure.com/pagefiles/85459/alfa_rome... The large round dial is used for most of the menu navigation. The small one to the right is for changing radio station/tracks and volume. By comparison, my fiances Jetta's touch screen was pretty cool when we first got it. But then noticing how unresponsive it was, misclicking, and dirty it gets I don't think I will go for a touch screen again personally.

HiroshiSan 7y ago
Not to mention the Giulia is gorgeous.

jdpigeon 7y ago

I think this guy is pretty brave for admitting he listens to Pitbull's radio station. My skin crawled with embarrassment reading that.

peterlk 7y ago

I too have a huge problem with touch screens in cars. Having tactile knobs means I can find things on the dash without taking my eyes off the road. The thing that I think most of the comments are missing is the thing that powers all tech... Ads There is currently a push behind the scenes to own the in-car advertising system. This is a reason why Google is making a play for an automobile OS [0]. I desperately hope that car manufacturers return to physical buttons, but in-car ads are offer huge potential financial upside. You could sell a car at a loss to consumers and still come out ahead... [0] https://www.android.com/auto/ https://www.android.com/auto/

SN76477 7y ago

bring back tactile interfaces please

blueboo 7y ago

I’ve never understood why all the centre-dash controls have, since time immemorial, been angled away from the driver. Radio control is one plausible compromise but defroster? Navigation?

netsharc 7y ago

Seems to be a lot of words for what we know already: knobs and switches good, touchscreen bad.

rkagerer 7y ago

As an example of exactly the sort of broken design thinking that will make cars unsafe, I'd like to repeat a comment I made in 2017: In one of the talks at Google I/O last year a VP from Audi (or Volvo?) spoke in a thick and lofty German accent about how "ve haf completely oferhauled ze driver exzperienze". He played a sexy video clip showcasing their new Android infotainment system (something like https://youtu.be/h_7_fKJ0PNs https://youtu.be/h_7_fKJ0PNs), and the first thing I noticed is how they'd taken away my traditional temperature knobs and replaced them with digital touchscreen ones. They looked just like physical ones, and were in the exact same place you would expect (https://9to5google.com/2017/05/15/android-cars-audi/ https://9to5google.com/2017/05/15/android-cars-audi/). So, I've gained absolutely nothing, and now I have to take my eyes off the road and look down at the stupid console just to change the temperature. TLDR: Tacticle feedback is a Good Thing(tm) and designers should cultivate - not fight - muscle memory.