7 ms·

Ragtime is neither classical music nor jazz (2009)

40 points by nickdrozd 7y ago

slyrus 7y ago
I first read that as "Ragtime is neither classical nor music", which seemed a bit harsh.
RickJWagner 7y ago
I like ragtime. The syncopation, the snappy rhythm-- it's good music. I also associate it strongly with 'The Sting'. An old movie, but a great one.
- pdonis 7y ago
  The musical score of The Sting (a great movie, I agree) was notable because of the orchestral arrangements of Joplin's music, which of course was originally written for solo piano.
- joegahona 7y ago
  For a really enjoyable contemporary ragtime, try William Bolcom's "Graceful Ghost": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jftAt4mXFk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jftAt4mXFk Ragtime isn't a style I could listen to constantly but in doses I like it too.
- aluren 7y ago
  Interestingly, ragtime had been out of fashion for 20+ years by the time of The Sting's setting (early 1930's). I also love ragtime and associate it with The Sting as well though, it's just amusing to think that our association between the music and the era was made up by George Roy Hill.
- mrzool 7y ago
  s/but/and/
pretense35 7y ago
I can’t remember the movie, but I recall a British character proclaiming the “Jazz is just musical wanking.” Or something to that extent. Whatever. This article is the written equivalent. I love some forms of Jazz and hate others. If you like a different set, good for you! Like what you like and ignore the haters. This was a very pretentious article.
- isoskeles 7y ago
  Looks like the author is a classical + jazz pianist, so I'm not sure why it would be pretentious for him to have an opinion about something he loves and does for a living. Can you explain?
  - analog31 7y ago
    I'm a jazz bassist. The author seems to pit stereotype against stereotype. I can't fault his analysis of ragtime music, but he needn't paint me as an enemy. His description of jazz musicians and fans seems to be from a movie, not from real life. I play in a large jazz enesmble. We tend to favor newer material when we can lay our hands on it. The musicians and audience members come from all walks of life, and at least according to my own impression, are generally a cheerful lot, just happy to be able to experience the music.
- 78zeros 7y ago
  IIRC “Jazz is musical wanking” is a line from The Commitments
- tptacek 7y ago
  I like Steve Coogan as Tony Wilson (the founder of Factory Records) in _24 Hour Party People_ (one of The Great Startup Movies) saying something like "jazz musicians are having way more fun than their audiences". I like jazz! (Or: I like Miles Davis). It's just a great line.
tunesmith 7y ago
Stride (bass notes on 1 and 3, chord accompaniment on 2 and 4, all in the left hand) is the common accompaniment in ragtime, and is also a very common technique used in jazz for solo pianists. In jazz you might vary it up some more, mixed in with some voice leading in the comping and some walking bass lines, but anyways, while ragtime might not be jazz, they do have some common language.
vbuwivbiu 7y ago
Ragtime is classical music
lmm 7y ago
The author derides the ahistorical, overly-respectful approach of people who treat ragtime like pre-20th-century classical music - but fails to acknowledge that this approach is just as ahistorical and overly-respectful when applied to pre-20th-century classical. Chopin, Liszt, and Beethoven were absolutely writing to put bread on the table, and absolutely did not play to the score as written. > Classical music and popular music serve entirely different purposes and have diametrically opposed motivations behind their creation. In general, a classical composer uses music to express his deepest emotions and experiences. Classical music arouses the intellect and the passions. It addresses the deepest questions of human existence. Classical music is sophisticated and intelligent. The impression is that it cannot be appreciated by the uninititated and the uneducated. Of course, classical composers were traditionally supported and constrained by the patronage system. Poverty may have obliged Mozart to accept commissions for works he might not otherwise of written, but his patrons probably never asked him to "dumb it down." This is sheer nonsense. I'm hardly a major classical fan but I can immediately think of an example: Beethoven's String Quartet No. 13 B flat (thanks HN for eating the flat symbol) originally concluded with his Große Fuge (which was later published separately), but at his publisher's pleading he reworked it with a lighter and more accessible ending. As far as I can see this essay draws no genuine distinction between Ragtime and Classical. Joyous improvisational play is equally authentic - and equally valuable - for (pre-20th century) classical as it is for ragtime.
- mcv 7y ago
  > Chopin, Liszt, and Beethoven were absolutely writing to put bread on the table, and absolutely did not play to the score as written. Is whether or not you play the score as written an issue? How do we even know this about composers that predate recording technology? I'm not wondering if maybe the advent of recording technology might be the source of the modern distinction between classical, pop and jazz. Something that struck me from the bit you quoted from the article: > > In general, a classical composer uses music to express his deepest emotions and experiences. I think that might actually be more true of some forms of jazz and pop. Much classical music is very much an intellectual exercise, whereas blues and rock tend to be far more emotional. But again this varies wildly within each genre. Hardly a meaningful distinction. There's a massive difference between pre-20th century classical music, which was very much the pop music of its day, and modern classical music, which is often far less accessible and more elitist. (Though there are still many beautiful and accessible modern classical pieces. Interestingly, many draw inspiration from jazz.)
vanilla-almond 7y ago
Joplin is the most famous of the ragtime composers. He aspired to be taken seriously as a classical composer. Although some of his rags were popular when they were published, recognition as a serious composer never came during his lifetime. Other composers of rags may not have aspired to elevate their pieces as serious compositions, but Joplin certainly did. Also, contrary to what this article states, ragtime pieces are not all "happy, joyful, playful, danceable, and uplifting". To take Joplin as an example again, although many of his piano pieces are lively and melodious, there are also melancholy pieces like Solace and Bethena Waltz perhaps reflecting the troubled life he led. The article is also wrong when it states Joplin had no intentions in the way his work is performed. Joplin did not want his rags to be played at fast speeds. This is often the case in many recordings (including, in my opinion, with Joshua Rifkin). My favourite performer of Joplin's music is the late Canadian musician John Arpin. I listen mostly to classical music and love Joplin's piano music, but even today, there's a lot of snobbishness about Joplin's music from some quarters in the classical music field. But wherever you start with Joplin's music, the sound of a rag is irresistible. By the way, if you are in the UK you can listen to an 2017 episode of Composer of the Week on Joplin on BBC Radio 3 here. BBC Radio 3 is the BBC's classical, jazz and world music radio station. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04z0qqt https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04z0qqt
BentFranklin 7y ago
This whole article and discussion reinforces my decision to remove any and all genre tags from my music files.

40 points by nickdrozd 7y ago

I first read that as "Ragtime is neither classical nor music", which seemed a bit harsh.

I like ragtime. The syncopation, the snappy rhythm-- it's good music. I also associate it strongly with 'The Sting'. An old movie, but a great one.

pdonis 7y ago
The musical score of The Sting (a great movie, I agree) was notable because of the orchestral arrangements of Joplin's music, which of course was originally written for solo piano.
joegahona 7y ago
For a really enjoyable contemporary ragtime, try William Bolcom's "Graceful Ghost": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jftAt4mXFk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jftAt4mXFk Ragtime isn't a style I could listen to constantly but in doses I like it too.
aluren 7y ago
Interestingly, ragtime had been out of fashion for 20+ years by the time of The Sting's setting (early 1930's). I also love ragtime and associate it with The Sting as well though, it's just amusing to think that our association between the music and the era was made up by George Roy Hill.
mrzool 7y ago
s/but/and/

pretense35 7y ago

I can’t remember the movie, but I recall a British character proclaiming the “Jazz is just musical wanking.” Or something to that extent. Whatever. This article is the written equivalent. I love some forms of Jazz and hate others. If you like a different set, good for you! Like what you like and ignore the haters. This was a very pretentious article.

isoskeles 7y ago
Looks like the author is a classical + jazz pianist, so I'm not sure why it would be pretentious for him to have an opinion about something he loves and does for a living. Can you explain?
- analog31 7y ago
  I'm a jazz bassist. The author seems to pit stereotype against stereotype. I can't fault his analysis of ragtime music, but he needn't paint me as an enemy. His description of jazz musicians and fans seems to be from a movie, not from real life. I play in a large jazz enesmble. We tend to favor newer material when we can lay our hands on it. The musicians and audience members come from all walks of life, and at least according to my own impression, are generally a cheerful lot, just happy to be able to experience the music.
78zeros 7y ago
IIRC “Jazz is musical wanking” is a line from The Commitments
tptacek 7y ago
I like Steve Coogan as Tony Wilson (the founder of Factory Records) in _24 Hour Party People_ (one of The Great Startup Movies) saying something like "jazz musicians are having way more fun than their audiences". I like jazz! (Or: I like Miles Davis). It's just a great line.

tunesmith 7y ago

Stride (bass notes on 1 and 3, chord accompaniment on 2 and 4, all in the left hand) is the common accompaniment in ragtime, and is also a very common technique used in jazz for solo pianists. In jazz you might vary it up some more, mixed in with some voice leading in the comping and some walking bass lines, but anyways, while ragtime might not be jazz, they do have some common language.

vbuwivbiu 7y ago

Ragtime is classical music

lmm 7y ago

The author derides the ahistorical, overly-respectful approach of people who treat ragtime like pre-20th-century classical music - but fails to acknowledge that this approach is just as ahistorical and overly-respectful when applied to pre-20th-century classical. Chopin, Liszt, and Beethoven were absolutely writing to put bread on the table, and absolutely did not play to the score as written. > Classical music and popular music serve entirely different purposes and have diametrically opposed motivations behind their creation. In general, a classical composer uses music to express his deepest emotions and experiences. Classical music arouses the intellect and the passions. It addresses the deepest questions of human existence. Classical music is sophisticated and intelligent. The impression is that it cannot be appreciated by the uninititated and the uneducated. Of course, classical composers were traditionally supported and constrained by the patronage system. Poverty may have obliged Mozart to accept commissions for works he might not otherwise of written, but his patrons probably never asked him to "dumb it down." This is sheer nonsense. I'm hardly a major classical fan but I can immediately think of an example: Beethoven's String Quartet No. 13 B flat (thanks HN for eating the flat symbol) originally concluded with his Große Fuge (which was later published separately), but at his publisher's pleading he reworked it with a lighter and more accessible ending. As far as I can see this essay draws no genuine distinction between Ragtime and Classical. Joyous improvisational play is equally authentic - and equally valuable - for (pre-20th century) classical as it is for ragtime.

mcv 7y ago
> Chopin, Liszt, and Beethoven were absolutely writing to put bread on the table, and absolutely did not play to the score as written. Is whether or not you play the score as written an issue? How do we even know this about composers that predate recording technology? I'm not wondering if maybe the advent of recording technology might be the source of the modern distinction between classical, pop and jazz. Something that struck me from the bit you quoted from the article: > > In general, a classical composer uses music to express his deepest emotions and experiences. I think that might actually be more true of some forms of jazz and pop. Much classical music is very much an intellectual exercise, whereas blues and rock tend to be far more emotional. But again this varies wildly within each genre. Hardly a meaningful distinction. There's a massive difference between pre-20th century classical music, which was very much the pop music of its day, and modern classical music, which is often far less accessible and more elitist. (Though there are still many beautiful and accessible modern classical pieces. Interestingly, many draw inspiration from jazz.)

vanilla-almond 7y ago

Joplin is the most famous of the ragtime composers. He aspired to be taken seriously as a classical composer. Although some of his rags were popular when they were published, recognition as a serious composer never came during his lifetime. Other composers of rags may not have aspired to elevate their pieces as serious compositions, but Joplin certainly did. Also, contrary to what this article states, ragtime pieces are not all "happy, joyful, playful, danceable, and uplifting". To take Joplin as an example again, although many of his piano pieces are lively and melodious, there are also melancholy pieces like Solace and Bethena Waltz perhaps reflecting the troubled life he led. The article is also wrong when it states Joplin had no intentions in the way his work is performed. Joplin did not want his rags to be played at fast speeds. This is often the case in many recordings (including, in my opinion, with Joshua Rifkin). My favourite performer of Joplin's music is the late Canadian musician John Arpin. I listen mostly to classical music and love Joplin's piano music, but even today, there's a lot of snobbishness about Joplin's music from some quarters in the classical music field. But wherever you start with Joplin's music, the sound of a rag is irresistible. By the way, if you are in the UK you can listen to an 2017 episode of Composer of the Week on Joplin on BBC Radio 3 here. BBC Radio 3 is the BBC's classical, jazz and world music radio station. https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04z0qqt https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04z0qqt

BentFranklin 7y ago

This whole article and discussion reinforces my decision to remove any and all genre tags from my music files.