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The electoral college is becoming severely strained. With each couple of presidential cycles the country increasingly tests its limits. How many million more vo

The electoral college is becoming severely strained. With each couple of presidential cycles the country increasingly tests its limits. How many million more votes did Clinton have over Trump in 2016? Trump won the election by ~30K votes spread across two 'blue wall' states and a single rust belt state. Republican gerrymandering and the agglomeration of left-wing voters in metropolitan corridors goes a long way to explaining the recent Republican monopoly in the Senate. Now, if you are suggesting that having the White House and half the legislature excludes a party from harboring within its fold a countries counterculture, then explain the 90's. The only rebuttal here is to say that the Clinton administration and the Democrats in Congress during the 90's were not representative of leftist counterculture, but that Trump and the GOP are representative of that part of the right-wing I am labeling as counterculture. The former is perhaps plausible, the latter probably isn't. What goes on on 4chan and 8chan, from what I can tell, is not representative of what goes on in D.C. Now, for the sake of argument, say we accept this modified argument and agree that Trump and the GOP Congress represents what I am labeling the new counterculture. Can you still not see how center-left politics is the dominant culture? If I watch or read CNN, MSNBC, NBC, Comedy Central, The Economist, The NYT, Washington Post, The Late Shows, The Late Late Shows, pretty much anything coming out of Hollywood, etc. are you suggesting I'll find anti-trump culture to not be predominant within articles and videos I see?

dTal 7y ago
Being anti-Trump doesn't make you center-left. It's not even a question of politics. I can't even articulate all the reasons why he is bad for the country, not in a short comment - the fact that he is right-wing is least among them. Many (most?) Republicans also think this, but are unwilling to publicly undermine "their guy" (particularly at the expense of their careers). Also, in a society with free media, surely the "dominant culture" is centrist, by definition?
- anongraddebt 7y ago
  I didn't imply being anti-trump was sufficient for making one center-left. My argument is that a political wing holding the White House and Congress is insufficient evidence for a countries counterculture being precluded from coming from that wing. The fact that establishment type Republicans (whether in office, writing op-eds and books, or simply voting as normal citizens) are also anti-Trump, strengthens my argument. ---- There seem to be at least five possible candidates for a counterculture today: progressives, center-left (the cosmopolitan, coastal, etc.), centrists, establishment republicans, and the portion of Trump supporters that are 'alt-right'(I assume the alt-right populate 4chan and 8chan quite heavily). The disagreement here seems to be over whether the fact that Trump is in office and the GOP holds the senate, precludes the alt-right from being the countries counterculture. I can see a number of different ways this could evolve argumentatively. Regardless, to preclude the alt-right from being the counterculture on the basis that the GOP has the White House and the Senate, requires assuming Trump is alt-right, some non-trivial portion of Congress is alt-right, and that for some additional reason these facts preclude the alt-right from being the counterculture.
  - dTal 7y ago
    I wasn't responding to your argument about counterculture - simply the following pair of sentences: > Can you still not see how center-left politics is the dominant culture? If I watch or read CNN, MSNBC, NBC, Comedy Central, The Economist, The NYT, Washington Post, The Late Shows, The Late Late Shows, pretty much anything coming out of Hollywood, etc. are you suggesting I'll find anti-trump culture to not be predominant within articles and videos I see? I'm obviously misinterpreting, but to me that sentence ordering does imply that "anti-Trump = center left".
navigatesol 7y ago
>How many million more votes did Clinton have over Trump in 2016? Since the election isn't determined by popular vote, and hence candidates don't campaign with a strategy to earn the most votes, this is irrelevant to the outcome and by no means indication that Clinton would have won.
- anongraddebt 7y ago
  A consequence of your argument is that most everyone on the left who said the electoral college is becoming unacceptable due to Democrats winning the popular vote but not the White House (Gore and Clinton), in fact had empty arguments and talking points. I'm not sure that's a consequence you'd want to accept. Regardless, do you think the multiple millions of additional votes Clinton received is not at least minimal evidence that the country is a bit more left-wing than right-wing?
  - navigatesol 7y ago
    >Regardless, do you think the multiple millions of additional votes Clinton received is not at least minimal evidence that the country is a bit more left-wing than right-wing? Personally, being as how I don't consider Clinton left-wing, nor Trump right-wing, I can't say for certain.

dTal 7y ago

Being anti-Trump doesn't make you center-left. It's not even a question of politics. I can't even articulate all the reasons why he is bad for the country, not in a short comment - the fact that he is right-wing is least among them. Many (most?) Republicans also think this, but are unwilling to publicly undermine "their guy" (particularly at the expense of their careers). Also, in a society with free media, surely the "dominant culture" is centrist, by definition?

anongraddebt 7y ago
I didn't imply being anti-trump was sufficient for making one center-left. My argument is that a political wing holding the White House and Congress is insufficient evidence for a countries counterculture being precluded from coming from that wing. The fact that establishment type Republicans (whether in office, writing op-eds and books, or simply voting as normal citizens) are also anti-Trump, strengthens my argument. ---- There seem to be at least five possible candidates for a counterculture today: progressives, center-left (the cosmopolitan, coastal, etc.), centrists, establishment republicans, and the portion of Trump supporters that are 'alt-right'(I assume the alt-right populate 4chan and 8chan quite heavily). The disagreement here seems to be over whether the fact that Trump is in office and the GOP holds the senate, precludes the alt-right from being the countries counterculture. I can see a number of different ways this could evolve argumentatively. Regardless, to preclude the alt-right from being the counterculture on the basis that the GOP has the White House and the Senate, requires assuming Trump is alt-right, some non-trivial portion of Congress is alt-right, and that for some additional reason these facts preclude the alt-right from being the counterculture.
- dTal 7y ago
  I wasn't responding to your argument about counterculture - simply the following pair of sentences: > Can you still not see how center-left politics is the dominant culture? If I watch or read CNN, MSNBC, NBC, Comedy Central, The Economist, The NYT, Washington Post, The Late Shows, The Late Late Shows, pretty much anything coming out of Hollywood, etc. are you suggesting I'll find anti-trump culture to not be predominant within articles and videos I see? I'm obviously misinterpreting, but to me that sentence ordering does imply that "anti-Trump = center left".

navigatesol 7y ago

>How many million more votes did Clinton have over Trump in 2016? Since the election isn't determined by popular vote, and hence candidates don't campaign with a strategy to earn the most votes, this is irrelevant to the outcome and by no means indication that Clinton would have won.

anongraddebt 7y ago
A consequence of your argument is that most everyone on the left who said the electoral college is becoming unacceptable due to Democrats winning the popular vote but not the White House (Gore and Clinton), in fact had empty arguments and talking points. I'm not sure that's a consequence you'd want to accept. Regardless, do you think the multiple millions of additional votes Clinton received is not at least minimal evidence that the country is a bit more left-wing than right-wing?
- navigatesol 7y ago
  >Regardless, do you think the multiple millions of additional votes Clinton received is not at least minimal evidence that the country is a bit more left-wing than right-wing? Personally, being as how I don't consider Clinton left-wing, nor Trump right-wing, I can't say for certain.