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> Do you think I'm a hate filled racist? ...Being fascinated in the Kek phenomenon is very different from going to the trouble of obtaining a physical version

> Do you think I'm a hate filled racist? ...Being fascinated in the Kek phenomenon is very different from going to the trouble of obtaining a physical version of the flag of Kekistan and flying it in public. Do you do this?

jeromic 7y ago
Given that he isn't racist and doesn't consider Kek to be racist, what would be the problem with flying the flag? Look at https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/kekistan https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/kekistan, it looks like a joke that is being taken way too seriously.
- jsjolen 7y ago
  It's meant to look like a joke on the surface. I was a big fan of the "feels good man" comic (Pepe the frog) but I wouldn't deny that it's been co-opted by the far right. Also, kekistan is a way worse joke than "feels good man".
  - jeromic 7y ago
    So if extremists start using a symbol, everyone else has to stop using it and let them have it? Wouldn't it be preferable to ignore the extremists so they don't get the symbol, and the symbol isn't ruined?
    - krapp 7y ago
      >So if extremists start using a symbol, everyone else has to stop using it and let them have it? If extremists start using a symbol, non-extremists have to accept that they might be associated with those extremists by continuing to use it. >Wouldn't it be preferable to ignore the extremists so they don't get the symbol, and the symbol isn't ruined? That's not how it works. They're using the symbol anyway, so it gets ruined anyway. Ignoring the Nazis would not have had prevented them from owning the meaning of the swastika in the Western world, to use the obvious example.
      - jeromic 7y ago
        Following that example, what if the Nazis used the letter 'x' as their symbol? Some non-Nazis might be associated with them by using the letter, but surely that effect can be diluted if everyone continues to use the letter as normal. And is the letter 'x' really ruined? The swastika wasn't ruined for many Eastern cultures as its original meaning was widely known.
        krapp 7y ago
        The letter x as a symbol already has widespread use and an accepted, common meaning in the Western world, but the swastika really didn't until the Nazis appropriated it. Which is why Nazis probably wouldn't appropriate the letter x because its power as a symbol had already been diluted. Also, a symbol can be ruined locally and not ruined globally. The swastika wasn't ruined for Eastern cultures, but it was definitely ruined for everyone but Nazis everywhere else. If Buddhists decided to get together to try to "reclaim" the swastika for its original peaceful intent, they would fail utterly, even though they have a perfectly rational and defensible case.
        pvg 7y ago
        It's been done. You just gotta use two 'x's. http://images.amcnetworks.com/ifccenter.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/the-great-dictator_1280x720.jpg http://images.amcnetworks.com/ifccenter.com/wp-content/uploa...
        anigbrowl 7y ago
        As a matter of fact they recently tried something along those lines by creating a bunch of 'fashtag' memes designed to assert that the # sign was a cryptic Hitler reference, complete with fake warning memes designed to look like they came from the ADL, SPLC, antifa etc. and create the appearance of a backlash, in hopes of drawing media attention to a manufactured controversy. It didn't work well, both because it was such an obviously forced meme and because they got so carried away that they burned a large number of sockpuppet accounts.
    - andrepd 7y ago
      The swastika is forever ruined. If you fly a swastika in nearly any occasion then "nazi" is going to be the interpretation, not any of the myriad previous meanings.
    - paulryanrogers 7y ago
      Symbolism is just another form of communication. And like language I imagine one has to evolve with it or be left out of touch or misunderstood.
- keymone 7y ago
  That somebody thinks it’s a funny joke doesn’t cancel out somebody else purposefully using it as a hate symbol knowing that other members of their sick cult know what they really mean.
SuoDuanDao 7y ago
I didn't, but in the early days I might have. There was a real divide at one time between the LN new atheist types who just wanted to score cheap political points and the CN meme magicians who took the whole 'avatar of chaos' thing very seriously. I kind of regret not throwing more of my weight to the side I think would have moved our dialogue forward, but realistically I don't suppose it matters.
- salawat 7y ago
  Have you heard much from the Discordians lately? You seem like someone who might have intersection with their circles. Not a bad thing at all, I've just not run into them in so long.
  - SuoDuanDao 7y ago
    Never met a practising discordian who called themselves that, though I've met Subgenii and chaos magicians. I'm currently reading the Illuminatus! trilogy that supposedly kicked that movement off, but I only know about that through Steve Jackson Games' frequent references. I don't know whether they're hiding or gone, it doesn't seem like a movement that would be big on recruiting so who knows?..

jeromic 7y ago

Given that he isn't racist and doesn't consider Kek to be racist, what would be the problem with flying the flag? Look at https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/kekistan https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/kekistan, it looks like a joke that is being taken way too seriously.

jsjolen 7y ago
It's meant to look like a joke on the surface. I was a big fan of the "feels good man" comic (Pepe the frog) but I wouldn't deny that it's been co-opted by the far right. Also, kekistan is a way worse joke than "feels good man".
- jeromic 7y ago
  So if extremists start using a symbol, everyone else has to stop using it and let them have it? Wouldn't it be preferable to ignore the extremists so they don't get the symbol, and the symbol isn't ruined?
  - krapp 7y ago
    >So if extremists start using a symbol, everyone else has to stop using it and let them have it? If extremists start using a symbol, non-extremists have to accept that they might be associated with those extremists by continuing to use it. >Wouldn't it be preferable to ignore the extremists so they don't get the symbol, and the symbol isn't ruined? That's not how it works. They're using the symbol anyway, so it gets ruined anyway. Ignoring the Nazis would not have had prevented them from owning the meaning of the swastika in the Western world, to use the obvious example.
    - jeromic 7y ago
      Following that example, what if the Nazis used the letter 'x' as their symbol? Some non-Nazis might be associated with them by using the letter, but surely that effect can be diluted if everyone continues to use the letter as normal. And is the letter 'x' really ruined? The swastika wasn't ruined for many Eastern cultures as its original meaning was widely known.
      - krapp 7y ago
        The letter x as a symbol already has widespread use and an accepted, common meaning in the Western world, but the swastika really didn't until the Nazis appropriated it. Which is why Nazis probably wouldn't appropriate the letter x because its power as a symbol had already been diluted. Also, a symbol can be ruined locally and not ruined globally. The swastika wasn't ruined for Eastern cultures, but it was definitely ruined for everyone but Nazis everywhere else. If Buddhists decided to get together to try to "reclaim" the swastika for its original peaceful intent, they would fail utterly, even though they have a perfectly rational and defensible case.
        pvg 7y ago
        It's been done. You just gotta use two 'x's. http://images.amcnetworks.com/ifccenter.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/the-great-dictator_1280x720.jpg http://images.amcnetworks.com/ifccenter.com/wp-content/uploa...
        anigbrowl 7y ago
        As a matter of fact they recently tried something along those lines by creating a bunch of 'fashtag' memes designed to assert that the # sign was a cryptic Hitler reference, complete with fake warning memes designed to look like they came from the ADL, SPLC, antifa etc. and create the appearance of a backlash, in hopes of drawing media attention to a manufactured controversy. It didn't work well, both because it was such an obviously forced meme and because they got so carried away that they burned a large number of sockpuppet accounts.
  - andrepd 7y ago
    The swastika is forever ruined. If you fly a swastika in nearly any occasion then "nazi" is going to be the interpretation, not any of the myriad previous meanings.
  - paulryanrogers 7y ago
    Symbolism is just another form of communication. And like language I imagine one has to evolve with it or be left out of touch or misunderstood.
keymone 7y ago
That somebody thinks it’s a funny joke doesn’t cancel out somebody else purposefully using it as a hate symbol knowing that other members of their sick cult know what they really mean.

SuoDuanDao 7y ago

I didn't, but in the early days I might have. There was a real divide at one time between the LN new atheist types who just wanted to score cheap political points and the CN meme magicians who took the whole 'avatar of chaos' thing very seriously. I kind of regret not throwing more of my weight to the side I think would have moved our dialogue forward, but realistically I don't suppose it matters.

salawat 7y ago
Have you heard much from the Discordians lately? You seem like someone who might have intersection with their circles. Not a bad thing at all, I've just not run into them in so long.
- SuoDuanDao 7y ago
  Never met a practising discordian who called themselves that, though I've met Subgenii and chaos magicians. I'm currently reading the Illuminatus! trilogy that supposedly kicked that movement off, but I only know about that through Steve Jackson Games' frequent references. I don't know whether they're hiding or gone, it doesn't seem like a movement that would be big on recruiting so who knows?..