3 ms·

I don't think people are especially willing to cooperate in the absence of enforced rules, even with regard to the GPL. They didn't "choose" to live in countri

I don't think people are especially willing to cooperate in the absence of enforced rules, even with regard to the GPL. They didn't "choose" to live in countries where governments will perform force against them if they break the rules -- that's a very rosy view of consent and cooperation. And even in such a world, GPL violations are so common that for a while I think most Android phones in existence weren't even trying hard to pretend to comply with GPL.

c22 7y ago
Governments aren't strange 3rd party alien entities enforcing their "rules" on a captive population. All governments (and corporations) consist of individuals. Some day governments will consist entirely of people who haven't been born yet, so it seems a little disingenuous to imply these people are just being born into an authoritarian world that they have no power to change. Governments continue to enjoy legitimacy because populations choose to continue to accept them. My argument was that these massive social structures are already the result of unprecedented levels of cooperation and their global influence and homogenization appear to be expanding. Are we at peak cooperation yet? Apparently not, some companies abuse the GPL and I still occasionally have to clean up other people's dog shit. And realistically there will probably always be a few "Mikes" somewhere polluting the lake for their personal profit, but I believe we are moving in the right direction and we will be able to reduce the freeloaders to a tolerable level as long as we continue to produce way more than we can possibly use. In the meantime I prefer to walk the walk, I'll continue to gift my extra time and energy to help others achieve their goals and I absolutely will spend an extra $50 on widgets if I find out Wanda is up to something shady. I'm not against people who choose to use the GPL, I think it's an extremely clever legal hack, but I look forward to a world where people don't feel like they have to.
- cjbprime 7y ago
  I agree with most of that. But like.. most software is proprietary, right? Left to their own devices, Microsoft and Apple didn't decide to cooperate with the world and share software; instead they became the richest companies in the world by instituting a de facto computer tax. What you describe as "cooperation" really seems more like "people complying with rules enforced by force to the smallest extent possible", even in this software example. There are obviously some cases where humans work together really well -- times of conflict or disaster are probably a good example. But as society contains less scarcity, it seems like we move farther away from that massive cooperation, because there's no overriding need for it anymore.

c22 7y ago

Governments aren't strange 3rd party alien entities enforcing their "rules" on a captive population. All governments (and corporations) consist of individuals. Some day governments will consist entirely of people who haven't been born yet, so it seems a little disingenuous to imply these people are just being born into an authoritarian world that they have no power to change. Governments continue to enjoy legitimacy because populations choose to continue to accept them. My argument was that these massive social structures are already the result of unprecedented levels of cooperation and their global influence and homogenization appear to be expanding. Are we at peak cooperation yet? Apparently not, some companies abuse the GPL and I still occasionally have to clean up other people's dog shit. And realistically there will probably always be a few "Mikes" somewhere polluting the lake for their personal profit, but I believe we are moving in the right direction and we will be able to reduce the freeloaders to a tolerable level as long as we continue to produce way more than we can possibly use. In the meantime I prefer to walk the walk, I'll continue to gift my extra time and energy to help others achieve their goals and I absolutely will spend an extra $50 on widgets if I find out Wanda is up to something shady. I'm not against people who choose to use the GPL, I think it's an extremely clever legal hack, but I look forward to a world where people don't feel like they have to.

cjbprime 7y ago
I agree with most of that. But like.. most software is proprietary, right? Left to their own devices, Microsoft and Apple didn't decide to cooperate with the world and share software; instead they became the richest companies in the world by instituting a de facto computer tax. What you describe as "cooperation" really seems more like "people complying with rules enforced by force to the smallest extent possible", even in this software example. There are obviously some cases where humans work together really well -- times of conflict or disaster are probably a good example. But as society contains less scarcity, it seems like we move farther away from that massive cooperation, because there's no overriding need for it anymore.