4 ms·

What defined a usable computer in 1999 is very different to what defines a usable computer in 2019.

by sjwright 7y ago

pjmlp 7y ago
Having a CLI isn't surely part of it for 99% of the consumers, neither in 1999 nor in 2019.
- robenkleene 7y ago
  I always think this is such an odd sentiment. That 1% builds 100% of the software for the other 99%. Doesn't that make them disproportionately more important?
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    No, because many developers are part of that 99%. Being a developer is not a synonym to be enamored with an UNIX CLI. In fact, a graphical REPL is much more powerful. So no, that 1% does not target the other 99%.
    - robenkleene 7y ago
      Liking using something is a bit different than having to use something. Are you saying you don't think the majority of developers need to use the command line for things like git, npm/general dependency management, running local web servers, compiling apps, continuous integration, etc...?
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        Yes, that is a tiny portion of what being a developer is all about. Not everyone is writing UNIX daemons, stuck in UNIX workflows. As I said, a graphical REPL for scripting languages is much more powerful.
        robenkleene 7y ago
        If you're talking about web developers, then the majority literally are writing Unix daemons[1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Public_servers_on_the_Internet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_syste... Again, I'm not talking about what's more powerful, and I'm not saying that everyone works this way, but I am suggesting the majority of developers do need the command line to do their job. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any usage statistics for the command line in isolation. But if you look at the most popular technologies, e.g., Node[2], then you can most likely extrapolate that the majority of developers are working with the command line. [2]: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-other-frameworks-libraries-and-tools https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-...
        pjmlp 7y ago
        Since we are speaking about Apple ecosystem here, most devs live in XCode. Just like we used to live on MPW and Metrowerks before. Scripting is perfectly doable from macros and IDE callable scripts.
        robenkleene 7y ago
        CocoaPods, Carthage, Fastlane, git, all require the command line, and most teams use some combination of those. Not to mention Xcode literally is just a wrapper around Unix processes like `xcodebuild` and `SourceKitService`. Then there's a whole host of other support command-line utilities for doing Cocoa development like `codesign`, `xcrun`, and `xcode-select` off the top of my head. Again, I wasn't making argument about where developers spend most of their time. Just that they need the command line as part of their workflow.
        pjmlp 7y ago
        How many processes an IDE uses is an implementation detail. The large majority of Apple and Microsoft developer communities live on their IDEs as part of our workflow. Scripting and automatization can be easily done from the IDE as well, thanks to macros, REPL and build integration points. Dropping down into a UNIX like CLI is the exception, not the norm for a large community. Ah, but what about WSL? Well, Microsoft saw a market opportunity to win developers that buy Apple computers to do Linux work, instead of buying laptops from the likes of Dell/Asus/Tuxedo/system76 to start with. So they are making UNIX devs comfortable on a foreign platform, just like NeXT was built on top of UNIX to take a piece of the pie from the UNIX workstation market being lead by Sun. Using the shell was never a thing for NeXTSTEP nor classical Mac OS development workflow.

What defined a usable computer in 1999 is very different to what defines a usable computer in 2019.

pjmlp 7y ago

Having a CLI isn't surely part of it for 99% of the consumers, neither in 1999 nor in 2019.

robenkleene 7y ago
I always think this is such an odd sentiment. That 1% builds 100% of the software for the other 99%. Doesn't that make them disproportionately more important?
- pjmlp 7y ago
  No, because many developers are part of that 99%. Being a developer is not a synonym to be enamored with an UNIX CLI. In fact, a graphical REPL is much more powerful. So no, that 1% does not target the other 99%.
  - robenkleene 7y ago
    Liking using something is a bit different than having to use something. Are you saying you don't think the majority of developers need to use the command line for things like git, npm/general dependency management, running local web servers, compiling apps, continuous integration, etc...?
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Yes, that is a tiny portion of what being a developer is all about. Not everyone is writing UNIX daemons, stuck in UNIX workflows. As I said, a graphical REPL for scripting languages is much more powerful.
      - robenkleene 7y ago
        If you're talking about web developers, then the majority literally are writing Unix daemons[1] [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems#Public_servers_on_the_Internet https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_syste... Again, I'm not talking about what's more powerful, and I'm not saying that everyone works this way, but I am suggesting the majority of developers do need the command line to do their job. Unfortunately, I'm not aware of any usage statistics for the command line in isolation. But if you look at the most popular technologies, e.g., Node[2], then you can most likely extrapolate that the majority of developers are working with the command line. [2]: https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-other-frameworks-libraries-and-tools https://insights.stackoverflow.com/survey/2019#technology-_-...
        pjmlp 7y ago
        Since we are speaking about Apple ecosystem here, most devs live in XCode. Just like we used to live on MPW and Metrowerks before. Scripting is perfectly doable from macros and IDE callable scripts.
        robenkleene 7y ago
        CocoaPods, Carthage, Fastlane, git, all require the command line, and most teams use some combination of those. Not to mention Xcode literally is just a wrapper around Unix processes like `xcodebuild` and `SourceKitService`. Then there's a whole host of other support command-line utilities for doing Cocoa development like `codesign`, `xcrun`, and `xcode-select` off the top of my head. Again, I wasn't making argument about where developers spend most of their time. Just that they need the command line as part of their workflow.
        pjmlp 7y ago
        How many processes an IDE uses is an implementation detail. The large majority of Apple and Microsoft developer communities live on their IDEs as part of our workflow. Scripting and automatization can be easily done from the IDE as well, thanks to macros, REPL and build integration points. Dropping down into a UNIX like CLI is the exception, not the norm for a large community. Ah, but what about WSL? Well, Microsoft saw a market opportunity to win developers that buy Apple computers to do Linux work, instead of buying laptops from the likes of Dell/Asus/Tuxedo/system76 to start with. So they are making UNIX devs comfortable on a foreign platform, just like NeXT was built on top of UNIX to take a piece of the pie from the UNIX workstation market being lead by Sun. Using the shell was never a thing for NeXTSTEP nor classical Mac OS development workflow.