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This needs to be pushed into the public eye more. There's a lot of green-washing going on in crypto-currency publicity, as of late, and it needs to be emphasize

This needs to be pushed into the public eye more. There's a lot of green-washing going on in crypto-currency publicity, as of late, and it needs to be emphasized how the MODEL is fundamentally broken. (Example: Proof of work complexity quadrupling in 2018 alone.) It's socially irresponsible, at this juncture in time, to be promoting such schemes. At this point in history it's abundantly clear that "alternative islands" cannot avoid confronting the "mainstream morass" as the "mainstream morass" is currently on a direct collision course with life itself.

throwaway857384 7y ago
How much pollution does gold mining produce? How much pollution does printing money produce? How much electricity (pollution) does visa use? How much pollution does any service we take for granted produce? I'm not saying bitcoins CO2 product is good or bad, just that there are so many things that create so much CO2 that we never question or consider.
- justaaron 7y ago
  Tell me more about the exponentially increasing pollution/costs of printing money, please. Tell me more about strawman arguments. I specifically alleged that "proof of work" is a bad idea.
  - jraedisch 7y ago
    A more economical solution that keeps all of Bitcoin's benefits would be nice, but it is not clear at all, whether that is possible. By forbidding Bitcoin large countries might make a dent in its adoption curve and push the problem back a couple of years, but that won't be a long term solution. Sooner or later we will probably have a globally accepted uninflatable reserve currency that uses a lot of energy, until another genius finds a more economical way to keep our savings safe.
    - jraedisch 7y ago
      Some bitcoiners would also argue that saving will lead to more informed and contemplated spending, thus reducing waste. Some are already saving a lot because they are expecting benefits in the future, a feeling which might have gotten lost in the recent past.
- ForHackernews 7y ago
  I think you're being disingenuous. Bitcoin is fundamentally different from all of those other things in that it is deliberately designed to be as inefficient as possible. Proof of Work is a Red Queen's Race[0] where the difficulty keeps escalating and you have to keep pumping in more energy or else risk somebody else executing a 51% attack against you. Not only do miners and printers work to make their processes more efficient and cheaper, but once the gold coins are minted or paper money is printed, they can be used for N transactions at extremely low cost per-transaction. Contrast this with bitcoin where EVERY SINGLE TRANSACTION has to be bundled in a block, so every single transaction involves more energy than an average household uses in a week[1]. Imagine burning a whole tank of gasoline to pay for a cup of coffee and you'll start to see why Bitcoin is an ecological atrocity. -- [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen%27s_race https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen%27s_race [1] https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ywbbpm/bitcoin-mining-electricity-consumption-ethereum-energy-climate-change https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ywbbpm/bitcoin-mining-ele... [2] https://www.coindesk.com/carbon-footprint-bitcoin https://www.coindesk.com/carbon-footprint-bitcoin
  - nyanloutre 7y ago
    You forget that it would use the same energy to produce a 1MB block than a 1GB block
    - teh_infallible 7y ago
      So few people understand this. Doubling blocksize doubles the capacity, and therefore the efficiency of the network.
      - zaarn 7y ago
        At the current efficiency level, the capacity would have to grow thousand-fold before it even approaches the efficiency needed. Not even lightning would provide the amount of capacity required IMO.
    - UncleMeat 7y ago
      And we've seen how controversial block size changes are.
- wtdata 7y ago
  Again this tired strawman argument? Gold mining produces several orders of magnitude less CO2 pollution than Bitcoin. Besides that, gold mining processes are ever increasingly more efficient, while Bitcoin, by design, is every increasingly less efficient to mine.
Lordarminius 7y ago
It is socially irresponsible to promote the best alternative we have to fiat currency and the looming disaster that is fractional reserve banking ?
- NotPaidToPost 7y ago
  Well if that's the best alternative to fiat money it only shows how fiat money will stay with us for a long, long time...
  - justaaron 7y ago
    It surely ISN'T proof-of-work blockchain crypto-currencies as currently implemented. I suppose that there is really very little pressure upon current crypto-currency implementations to alter their fundamentally flawed idea, as long as the currency can "pay for" itself LOL Externalities. They have successfully externalized the problems they are causing on to everyone else.
  - Lordarminius 7y ago
    The point that bears emphasizing is that Bitcoin is the harbinger of a new paradigm. It is the prototype of a technology and it's associated ecosystem designed to replace the current monetary model. There is no doubt in my mind or amongst those who closely follow cryptocurrencies that some other other digital coin with better technology will come along eventually and displace bitcoin. I agree this will take time, but it will not be a 'long long time'. Fiat may disappear almost completely in 50 to 100 years.
    - Junk_Collector 7y ago
      No cryptocurrency can replace fiat currency until it solves the use of force problem unless you think that there will suddenly be a world where you don't have to pay taxes.
      - seibelj 7y ago
        If the philosophy you believe is that cryptocurrency will eventually replace fiat, the argument is that you would convert your crypto to fiat when you need to pay taxes. This is similar to a gold bug that trades their gold into fiat at tax time. You pay a fee for the privilege but in return you aren’t wiped out by runaway inflation. I love the cryptocurrency arguments on HN because they are melting pots of philosophy and arguments of fundamentals that question the very foundations of our modern economy. Very fun reading!

throwaway857384 7y ago

How much pollution does gold mining produce? How much pollution does printing money produce? How much electricity (pollution) does visa use? How much pollution does any service we take for granted produce? I'm not saying bitcoins CO2 product is good or bad, just that there are so many things that create so much CO2 that we never question or consider.

justaaron 7y ago
Tell me more about the exponentially increasing pollution/costs of printing money, please. Tell me more about strawman arguments. I specifically alleged that "proof of work" is a bad idea.
- jraedisch 7y ago
  A more economical solution that keeps all of Bitcoin's benefits would be nice, but it is not clear at all, whether that is possible. By forbidding Bitcoin large countries might make a dent in its adoption curve and push the problem back a couple of years, but that won't be a long term solution. Sooner or later we will probably have a globally accepted uninflatable reserve currency that uses a lot of energy, until another genius finds a more economical way to keep our savings safe.
  - jraedisch 7y ago
    Some bitcoiners would also argue that saving will lead to more informed and contemplated spending, thus reducing waste. Some are already saving a lot because they are expecting benefits in the future, a feeling which might have gotten lost in the recent past.
ForHackernews 7y ago
I think you're being disingenuous. Bitcoin is fundamentally different from all of those other things in that it is deliberately designed to be as inefficient as possible. Proof of Work is a Red Queen's Race[0] where the difficulty keeps escalating and you have to keep pumping in more energy or else risk somebody else executing a 51% attack against you. Not only do miners and printers work to make their processes more efficient and cheaper, but once the gold coins are minted or paper money is printed, they can be used for N transactions at extremely low cost per-transaction. Contrast this with bitcoin where EVERY SINGLE TRANSACTION has to be bundled in a block, so every single transaction involves more energy than an average household uses in a week[1]. Imagine burning a whole tank of gasoline to pay for a cup of coffee and you'll start to see why Bitcoin is an ecological atrocity. -- [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen%27s_race https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Queen%27s_race [1] https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ywbbpm/bitcoin-mining-electricity-consumption-ethereum-energy-climate-change https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/ywbbpm/bitcoin-mining-ele... [2] https://www.coindesk.com/carbon-footprint-bitcoin https://www.coindesk.com/carbon-footprint-bitcoin
- nyanloutre 7y ago
  You forget that it would use the same energy to produce a 1MB block than a 1GB block
  - teh_infallible 7y ago
    So few people understand this. Doubling blocksize doubles the capacity, and therefore the efficiency of the network.
    - zaarn 7y ago
      At the current efficiency level, the capacity would have to grow thousand-fold before it even approaches the efficiency needed. Not even lightning would provide the amount of capacity required IMO.
  - UncleMeat 7y ago
    And we've seen how controversial block size changes are.
wtdata 7y ago
Again this tired strawman argument? Gold mining produces several orders of magnitude less CO2 pollution than Bitcoin. Besides that, gold mining processes are ever increasingly more efficient, while Bitcoin, by design, is every increasingly less efficient to mine.

Lordarminius 7y ago

It is socially irresponsible to promote the best alternative we have to fiat currency and the looming disaster that is fractional reserve banking ?

NotPaidToPost 7y ago
Well if that's the best alternative to fiat money it only shows how fiat money will stay with us for a long, long time...
- justaaron 7y ago
  It surely ISN'T proof-of-work blockchain crypto-currencies as currently implemented. I suppose that there is really very little pressure upon current crypto-currency implementations to alter their fundamentally flawed idea, as long as the currency can "pay for" itself LOL Externalities. They have successfully externalized the problems they are causing on to everyone else.
- Lordarminius 7y ago
  The point that bears emphasizing is that Bitcoin is the harbinger of a new paradigm. It is the prototype of a technology and it's associated ecosystem designed to replace the current monetary model. There is no doubt in my mind or amongst those who closely follow cryptocurrencies that some other other digital coin with better technology will come along eventually and displace bitcoin. I agree this will take time, but it will not be a 'long long time'. Fiat may disappear almost completely in 50 to 100 years.
  - Junk_Collector 7y ago
    No cryptocurrency can replace fiat currency until it solves the use of force problem unless you think that there will suddenly be a world where you don't have to pay taxes.
    - seibelj 7y ago
      If the philosophy you believe is that cryptocurrency will eventually replace fiat, the argument is that you would convert your crypto to fiat when you need to pay taxes. This is similar to a gold bug that trades their gold into fiat at tax time. You pay a fee for the privilege but in return you aren’t wiped out by runaway inflation. I love the cryptocurrency arguments on HN because they are melting pots of philosophy and arguments of fundamentals that question the very foundations of our modern economy. Very fun reading!