5 ms·

Leonardo da Vinci's forgotten musical invention

126 points by Schiphol 7y ago

taneq 7y ago
> The unusual instrument is a hybrid of elements from a harpsichord, an organ and a viola da gamba. It looks to me more akin to a hurdy-gurdy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurdy-gurdy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurdy-gurdy
- Schiphol 7y ago
  I mean, a hurdy-gurdy is a bit of a hybrid of harpsichord and viola :) Add in the organ and you get this.
- jet_32951 7y ago
  Exactly, and here's where you can see and hear one played: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmSTgU36xn4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmSTgU36xn4
- YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
  I was wondering about that too. Wikipedia has a nice explanation of how the two are different: In the first model the friction of the strings was achieved by a mechanical bow traveling sideways. The second model featured a single rotating wheel, similar to that of the earlier hurdy-gurdy, to play strings. It differs in that a hurdy-gurdy has a small number of strings that are constantly in contact with the wheel, rather than a larger number of strings that can be lowered onto the wheel. A hurdy-gurdy has a keybox with tangents that change the pitches of the strings, rather like placing fingers on violin strings. Leonardo's innovation of a keyboard with a lowering mechanism allowed individual notes to be played, alone or in specific desired chords over a large range of pitches. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola_organista#Description https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola_organista#Description In terms of sound, the instrument in the video in the posted article is not at all like a hurdy-gurdy. I find it sounds like a string quarted. Perhaps it's more the kind of pieces that are normally played on a hurdy-gurdy that tend to have a very folk-y sound, whereas the gentleman in the video above is playing a classical piece. But I don't think I'd really mistake this for a hurdy-gurdy. All of which reminds me- man, I'd love to learn to play the hurdy gurdy. Damn expensive instrument though.
  - taneq 7y ago
    Huh, thanks for that. :) > Damn expensive instrument though. I seem to remember having (way back when I was a kid) one of those "101 do-it-yourself projects" type books that had instructions for actually building one. I'm pretty sure it's where I learned about them. Seems like a lot of work though. These guys (https://www.cbgitty.com/kits-instruments-amps-more/diy-hurdy-gurdy-kit-build-an-amazing-musical-machine/ https://www.cbgitty.com/kits-instruments-amps-more/diy-hurdy...) have a laser-cut kit for a toy quality one which might be good enough to learn on.
    - YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
      Oh, wow, that can actually be played? I saw it when I was looking around for one and thought it was just for decoration. Thanks for pointing it out, I think I might actually give it a try. Cheers! :D
      - YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
        So I had a look around and there are actually a few people who make perfectly serviceable hurdy-gurdies that cost not that much. And so I just went and bought a proper one from this gentleman: http://www.vrabelhurdygurdy.com/instrument/ http://www.vrabelhurdygurdy.com/instrument/ People on the internets say he makes perfectly serviceable, no-frills hurdy-gurdies, which explains the price. So hey, taneq, if you're reading- thanks for the heads up, which started me on the search for an affordable hurdy-gurdy. I'll let my neighbours know it's all the fault of someone on the internet :P
nickserv 7y ago
The title says that none had been built, while in the video the man who made it says none have survived. Otherwise, quite an interesting sound, perfect for baroque music.
- droithomme 7y ago
  > none have survived Several have survived, but only one in complete working order, this 1625 specimen: https://www.europeana.eu/portal/en/exhibitions/explore-the-world-of-musical-instruments/instrument-design#ve-anchor-section_11862-js https://www.europeana.eu/portal/en/exhibitions/explore-the-w...
cousin_it 7y ago
Nice! So it has (in MIDI parlance) polyphonic aftertouch, but no pitch bend. I wonder if you could make a string instrument with both.
- kragen 7y ago
  Sure, just adjust the tension on the strings, the way electric guitar players do with a whammy bar.
- leoc 7y ago
  Sure. Here's a fretless bass with a Gizmotron: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBCvI-do0KA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBCvI-do0KA Even better, here's a pedal steel guitar with a Gizmotron ... and Robert Randolph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-CODgpHuPY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-CODgpHuPY .
  - cousin_it 7y ago
    Thanks, I didn't know about this device, really cool! Do you know if it's possible to have a sharper attack? Like, pluck the note normally and then sustain it with the device.
    - leoc 7y ago
      It should be possible: at https://youtu.be/i-CODgpHuPY?t=59 https://youtu.be/i-CODgpHuPY?t=59 you can see Randolph using a thumb-pick as well as the Gizmo, though it requires some careful positioning. (I've never used a Gizmotron myself.)
leoc 7y ago
Apparently the instrument is more like one of Hans Haiden's Geigenwerke than Leonardo's viola organista concept, though the two are similar. https://slippedisc.com/2013/11/leonardos-instrument-no-its-an-obscure-german-contraption/ https://slippedisc.com/2013/11/leonardos-instrument-no-its-a... WP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola_organista https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola_organista . See also the hurdy-gurdy (of course), the Wheelharp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP2iMdvMN5U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP2iMdvMN5U and the Gizmotron https://www.gizmotron.com/ https://www.gizmotron.com/ .
- no_identd 7y ago
  You forgot the nyckelharpa: https://youtu.be/e7sK5OiJHHQ https://youtu.be/e7sK5OiJHHQ Which kinda inverts all this in an entirely different way. Well, except for the wheelharp, the two sound very similar yet distinct.
telesilla 7y ago
The music he is playing, of Marin Marais and St. Colombe, would have been written a century after da Vinci's death in 1519 as St. Colombe and Marais were born in the 1600s. However, the instrument suits the music naturally well as some kind of viola da gamba would have been around during da Vinci's time. What has morphed into the modern day violin, viola and cello but has lost the breathy sorrowful voice of the gamba in exchange for virtuosity and loudness. Music more representative of da Vinci's time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD_wZLpaVPg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD_wZLpaVPg For more of the beautiful music of Marais and St. Colombe see Jordi Savall, the living maestro on the viola da gamba: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylpOO-7cyt0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylpOO-7cyt0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fXQ7Su4KZ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fXQ7Su4KZ8 and the beautiful film made about the two composers, about grief and love, about the viola da gamba: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF41CDD78BE4BF6C8 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF41CDD78BE4BF6C8 Savall's own wife died in 2011 and when I watch this movie since then, I feel his (pre-widower) outpouring of the deepest expression of grief. It's stunning.
bobske4 7y ago
Sounds horrible
- dang 7y ago
  Maybe so, but could you please not post unsubstantive comments to Hacker News?

126 points by Schiphol 7y ago

> The unusual instrument is a hybrid of elements from a harpsichord, an organ and a viola da gamba. It looks to me more akin to a hurdy-gurdy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurdy-gurdy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurdy-gurdy

Schiphol 7y ago
I mean, a hurdy-gurdy is a bit of a hybrid of harpsichord and viola :) Add in the organ and you get this.
jet_32951 7y ago
Exactly, and here's where you can see and hear one played: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmSTgU36xn4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmSTgU36xn4
YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
I was wondering about that too. Wikipedia has a nice explanation of how the two are different: In the first model the friction of the strings was achieved by a mechanical bow traveling sideways. The second model featured a single rotating wheel, similar to that of the earlier hurdy-gurdy, to play strings. It differs in that a hurdy-gurdy has a small number of strings that are constantly in contact with the wheel, rather than a larger number of strings that can be lowered onto the wheel. A hurdy-gurdy has a keybox with tangents that change the pitches of the strings, rather like placing fingers on violin strings. Leonardo's innovation of a keyboard with a lowering mechanism allowed individual notes to be played, alone or in specific desired chords over a large range of pitches. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola_organista#Description https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola_organista#Description In terms of sound, the instrument in the video in the posted article is not at all like a hurdy-gurdy. I find it sounds like a string quarted. Perhaps it's more the kind of pieces that are normally played on a hurdy-gurdy that tend to have a very folk-y sound, whereas the gentleman in the video above is playing a classical piece. But I don't think I'd really mistake this for a hurdy-gurdy. All of which reminds me- man, I'd love to learn to play the hurdy gurdy. Damn expensive instrument though.
- taneq 7y ago
  Huh, thanks for that. :) > Damn expensive instrument though. I seem to remember having (way back when I was a kid) one of those "101 do-it-yourself projects" type books that had instructions for actually building one. I'm pretty sure it's where I learned about them. Seems like a lot of work though. These guys (https://www.cbgitty.com/kits-instruments-amps-more/diy-hurdy-gurdy-kit-build-an-amazing-musical-machine/ https://www.cbgitty.com/kits-instruments-amps-more/diy-hurdy...) have a laser-cut kit for a toy quality one which might be good enough to learn on.
  - YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
    Oh, wow, that can actually be played? I saw it when I was looking around for one and thought it was just for decoration. Thanks for pointing it out, I think I might actually give it a try. Cheers! :D
    - YeGoblynQueenne 7y ago
      So I had a look around and there are actually a few people who make perfectly serviceable hurdy-gurdies that cost not that much. And so I just went and bought a proper one from this gentleman: http://www.vrabelhurdygurdy.com/instrument/ http://www.vrabelhurdygurdy.com/instrument/ People on the internets say he makes perfectly serviceable, no-frills hurdy-gurdies, which explains the price. So hey, taneq, if you're reading- thanks for the heads up, which started me on the search for an affordable hurdy-gurdy. I'll let my neighbours know it's all the fault of someone on the internet :P

nickserv 7y ago

The title says that none had been built, while in the video the man who made it says none have survived. Otherwise, quite an interesting sound, perfect for baroque music.

droithomme 7y ago
> none have survived Several have survived, but only one in complete working order, this 1625 specimen: https://www.europeana.eu/portal/en/exhibitions/explore-the-world-of-musical-instruments/instrument-design#ve-anchor-section_11862-js https://www.europeana.eu/portal/en/exhibitions/explore-the-w...

cousin_it 7y ago

Nice! So it has (in MIDI parlance) polyphonic aftertouch, but no pitch bend. I wonder if you could make a string instrument with both.

kragen 7y ago
Sure, just adjust the tension on the strings, the way electric guitar players do with a whammy bar.
leoc 7y ago
Sure. Here's a fretless bass with a Gizmotron: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBCvI-do0KA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UBCvI-do0KA Even better, here's a pedal steel guitar with a Gizmotron ... and Robert Randolph: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-CODgpHuPY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-CODgpHuPY .
- cousin_it 7y ago
  Thanks, I didn't know about this device, really cool! Do you know if it's possible to have a sharper attack? Like, pluck the note normally and then sustain it with the device.
  - leoc 7y ago
    It should be possible: at https://youtu.be/i-CODgpHuPY?t=59 https://youtu.be/i-CODgpHuPY?t=59 you can see Randolph using a thumb-pick as well as the Gizmo, though it requires some careful positioning. (I've never used a Gizmotron myself.)

leoc 7y ago

Apparently the instrument is more like one of Hans Haiden's Geigenwerke than Leonardo's viola organista concept, though the two are similar. https://slippedisc.com/2013/11/leonardos-instrument-no-its-an-obscure-german-contraption/ https://slippedisc.com/2013/11/leonardos-instrument-no-its-a... WP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola_organista https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viola_organista . See also the hurdy-gurdy (of course), the Wheelharp https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP2iMdvMN5U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP2iMdvMN5U and the Gizmotron https://www.gizmotron.com/ https://www.gizmotron.com/ .

no_identd 7y ago
You forgot the nyckelharpa: https://youtu.be/e7sK5OiJHHQ https://youtu.be/e7sK5OiJHHQ Which kinda inverts all this in an entirely different way. Well, except for the wheelharp, the two sound very similar yet distinct.

telesilla 7y ago

The music he is playing, of Marin Marais and St. Colombe, would have been written a century after da Vinci's death in 1519 as St. Colombe and Marais were born in the 1600s. However, the instrument suits the music naturally well as some kind of viola da gamba would have been around during da Vinci's time. What has morphed into the modern day violin, viola and cello but has lost the breathy sorrowful voice of the gamba in exchange for virtuosity and loudness. Music more representative of da Vinci's time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD_wZLpaVPg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MD_wZLpaVPg For more of the beautiful music of Marais and St. Colombe see Jordi Savall, the living maestro on the viola da gamba: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylpOO-7cyt0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylpOO-7cyt0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fXQ7Su4KZ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fXQ7Su4KZ8 and the beautiful film made about the two composers, about grief and love, about the viola da gamba: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF41CDD78BE4BF6C8 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLF41CDD78BE4BF6C8 Savall's own wife died in 2011 and when I watch this movie since then, I feel his (pre-widower) outpouring of the deepest expression of grief. It's stunning.

bobske4 7y ago

Sounds horrible

dang 7y ago
Maybe so, but could you please not post unsubstantive comments to Hacker News?