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Follow on tweet: > For additional context, since this photo doesn't show the whole scene: the line at every ticket machine stretched back 10+ meters. Anecdota

Follow on tweet: > For additional context, since this photo doesn't show the whole scene: the line at every ticket machine stretched back 10+ meters. Anecdotal, but I've never seen a queue at a ticket machine in Hong Kong. Octopus is so entrenched as a vital necessity in Hong Kong you'll even hear comics making jokes about one of the only essentials in HK is an Octopus card (while things like clothing are optional) It's not at all like the minimal copycat that Oyster in London is. Your Octopus can be used in lieu of card or cash payments in many retail outlets, restaurants, vending machines, even some taxis, all over the SAR, not just on HK island. The downside is every single thing you do is logged and tracked against your card, and associating a card with an individual is just one MTR ride with facial recognition away.

SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
As a tourist who has visited HK a few times now I have to say that I was really impressed by the convenience of the Octopus card. I'd never really considered the tracking implications.
z2 7y ago
Japan's IC card system is similar, and have been integrated across much of the country for universal use in transportation and cash-equivalent purchases. There are essentially two kinds, one that's unregistered, and one where you actually enter your personal information and get your name printed on the card, so that the system can disable the card and the balance can be replaced if the card is lost. At that point it's basically as trackable as any debit card.
dTal 7y ago
You can now use a contactless debit card in London in lieu of an Oyster card. I don't really see the difference between that and Octopus, now, except that contactless debit cards are a federated global system, which seems superior. Is the difference that Octopus cards can be obtained arbitrarily and anonymously? Because nobody gives a crap about being tracked by debit card usage, and they're already deanonymized.
- oarsinsync 7y ago
  To get an Octopus card, I need HK$150 cash. To get a contactless debit (or credit) card, I need proof of ID and proof of address. Octopus cards were launched in 1997. Oyster cards didn't come to London until 2003. Contactless debit cards didn't come into play with TfL until 2014, and Oyster cards never really extended beyond transport uses in that time. In comparison, retail establishments, vending machines, parking meters, car parks, were accepting Octopus cards as early as 2004. There's a lot to be said for that momentum / inertia, which Oyster cards never had, and the accessibility to absolutely everyone without any requirements beyond having the cash to pay for it (approx £15, with £5 deposit for the card and £10 initial credit) (It's also worth noting I dumped my Oyster card within a couple of months of contactless cards being accepted with TfL, while I still have my Octopus card as it's vital in HK in a way that Oyster never was in London)
  - yardstick 7y ago
    So the main difference in 2019 is HK Octopus doesn’t require ID, while UK Contactless does? But is that a big issue given all these people are actively avoiding using the Octopus to avoid being tracked? I guess Octopus doesn’t have age limits, I think you need to be 11 or higher to get a UK contactless card for yourself these days. Don’t know if that’s a legal minimum or just a banking decision. Edit: You can get prepaid cards too: https://www.mastercard.co.uk/en-gb/frequently-asked-questions.html#prepaid https://www.mastercard.co.uk/en-gb/frequently-asked-question...
    - oarsinsync 7y ago
      Acceptance of payment mechanism is the other difference. Debit and credit cards aren't accepted as widely as cash or Octopus in HK. Funnily enough, if you go to the more hipster parts of London, cash isn't accepted and you need a debit or credit card to pay in an increasingly large number of stores. Anecdotally, food trucks and markets often will prefer cards over cash (I ask which they prefer if I can do either) in London, while in HK I'll attempt to pay for everything by card first, and unless it's an upscale restaurant, I'll usually be rejected and get told cash/octopus only. I also don't think you get contactless with prepaid cards. There's the whole up to 3x £30 guarantee / fraud angle that can't be covered adequately on a prepaid card. (On a regular debit card, you can do up to 3x £30 transactions without authorisation, and if any of them are fraudulent, your bank will reimburse you, regardless of whether or not your card has been (reported) stolen)

SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago

As a tourist who has visited HK a few times now I have to say that I was really impressed by the convenience of the Octopus card. I'd never really considered the tracking implications.

z2 7y ago

Japan's IC card system is similar, and have been integrated across much of the country for universal use in transportation and cash-equivalent purchases. There are essentially two kinds, one that's unregistered, and one where you actually enter your personal information and get your name printed on the card, so that the system can disable the card and the balance can be replaced if the card is lost. At that point it's basically as trackable as any debit card.

dTal 7y ago

You can now use a contactless debit card in London in lieu of an Oyster card. I don't really see the difference between that and Octopus, now, except that contactless debit cards are a federated global system, which seems superior. Is the difference that Octopus cards can be obtained arbitrarily and anonymously? Because nobody gives a crap about being tracked by debit card usage, and they're already deanonymized.

oarsinsync 7y ago
To get an Octopus card, I need HK$150 cash. To get a contactless debit (or credit) card, I need proof of ID and proof of address. Octopus cards were launched in 1997. Oyster cards didn't come to London until 2003. Contactless debit cards didn't come into play with TfL until 2014, and Oyster cards never really extended beyond transport uses in that time. In comparison, retail establishments, vending machines, parking meters, car parks, were accepting Octopus cards as early as 2004. There's a lot to be said for that momentum / inertia, which Oyster cards never had, and the accessibility to absolutely everyone without any requirements beyond having the cash to pay for it (approx £15, with £5 deposit for the card and £10 initial credit) (It's also worth noting I dumped my Oyster card within a couple of months of contactless cards being accepted with TfL, while I still have my Octopus card as it's vital in HK in a way that Oyster never was in London)
- yardstick 7y ago
  So the main difference in 2019 is HK Octopus doesn’t require ID, while UK Contactless does? But is that a big issue given all these people are actively avoiding using the Octopus to avoid being tracked? I guess Octopus doesn’t have age limits, I think you need to be 11 or higher to get a UK contactless card for yourself these days. Don’t know if that’s a legal minimum or just a banking decision. Edit: You can get prepaid cards too: https://www.mastercard.co.uk/en-gb/frequently-asked-questions.html#prepaid https://www.mastercard.co.uk/en-gb/frequently-asked-question...
  - oarsinsync 7y ago
    Acceptance of payment mechanism is the other difference. Debit and credit cards aren't accepted as widely as cash or Octopus in HK. Funnily enough, if you go to the more hipster parts of London, cash isn't accepted and you need a debit or credit card to pay in an increasingly large number of stores. Anecdotally, food trucks and markets often will prefer cards over cash (I ask which they prefer if I can do either) in London, while in HK I'll attempt to pay for everything by card first, and unless it's an upscale restaurant, I'll usually be rejected and get told cash/octopus only. I also don't think you get contactless with prepaid cards. There's the whole up to 3x £30 guarantee / fraud angle that can't be covered adequately on a prepaid card. (On a regular debit card, you can do up to 3x £30 transactions without authorisation, and if any of them are fraudulent, your bank will reimburse you, regardless of whether or not your card has been (reported) stolen)