7 ms·

People reluctant to use their Octopus cards for fear of leaving a paper trail

kabwj 7y ago
It’s interesting how what this girl said (which frankly could be exaggerated or even made up for retweets and exposure) has turned into the title of this submission. Like embedding a pair of tweets and saying everybody is outraged. Journalism in 2019. Isn’t it more likely that, for example, many of these people had to come from far away to protest and they simply do not have an octopus card or it’s not valid for this zone?
- King-Aaron 7y ago
  Considering the history behind the Chinese government's response to protesters, I would be willing to consider that the title and related tweet is somewhat accurate.
  - SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
    Though I'd say that the hunch is right in this case, I'd be careful of falling into the trap of considering a news source more worthy just because it confirms your preexisting ideas.
- k_sze 7y ago
  There is no concept of “zone” with the Octopus card. Basically anybody who lives in HK has an Octopus card. Its use is very much entrenched. It’s more convenient than any other “modern” payment method you can think of, including Apple Pay, Google Pay, Samsung Pay, Visa payWave, etc. The only limitation is the daily automatic top-up limit. Which is to say that the desire for anonymity is the actual cause of the long queues, unless you think a lot of dark-haired and yellow-skinned foreigners who never had Octopus cards were flooding to the protest, which is unlikely.
- rswail 7y ago
  Having been involved in the development and installation of the Octopus card, nearly everyone in Hong Kong has one. The card is valid on all public transport in the SAR (except the ferries and trams) and is also used for retail like 7-11 and equivalent.
errnesto 7y ago
“This raises a lot of interesting questions about cash vs. cashless societies, and how in times of protest people may drastically adjust their usual economic behaviour.” Also what happens when you dont have the option to “adjust your behavior”? Like at least in Germany payments above some amount I don’t remember can not legally be paid in cache.
- mstolpm 7y ago
  Citation? As far as I know, there is no limit for paying cash in Germany. To fight crime, you have to show an ID if the amount is 10.000€ or more. In some other European countries, there are limits for paying with cash, but I don‘t think it applies to Germany at the time of writing.
- kiliankoe 7y ago
  There's definitely not a legal limit for what can be paid in cash in Germany. Withdrawals or deposits of several thousand euros might lead to banks looking into it to prevent money laundering and there are stores who refuse to accept cash at a certain point, but it's not an official thing.
oarsinsync 7y ago
Follow on tweet: > For additional context, since this photo doesn't show the whole scene: the line at every ticket machine stretched back 10+ meters. Anecdotal, but I've never seen a queue at a ticket machine in Hong Kong. Octopus is so entrenched as a vital necessity in Hong Kong you'll even hear comics making jokes about one of the only essentials in HK is an Octopus card (while things like clothing are optional) It's not at all like the minimal copycat that Oyster in London is. Your Octopus can be used in lieu of card or cash payments in many retail outlets, restaurants, vending machines, even some taxis, all over the SAR, not just on HK island. The downside is every single thing you do is logged and tracked against your card, and associating a card with an individual is just one MTR ride with facial recognition away.
- SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
  As a tourist who has visited HK a few times now I have to say that I was really impressed by the convenience of the Octopus card. I'd never really considered the tracking implications.
- z2 7y ago
  Japan's IC card system is similar, and have been integrated across much of the country for universal use in transportation and cash-equivalent purchases. There are essentially two kinds, one that's unregistered, and one where you actually enter your personal information and get your name printed on the card, so that the system can disable the card and the balance can be replaced if the card is lost. At that point it's basically as trackable as any debit card.
- dTal 7y ago
  You can now use a contactless debit card in London in lieu of an Oyster card. I don't really see the difference between that and Octopus, now, except that contactless debit cards are a federated global system, which seems superior. Is the difference that Octopus cards can be obtained arbitrarily and anonymously? Because nobody gives a crap about being tracked by debit card usage, and they're already deanonymized.
  - 7y ago
yeutterg 7y ago
As a frequent visitor to HK and Octopus Card holder, I don't believe I ever had to present ID to obtain my card. I just purchased it with cash at the Airport Express counter. Is it different for HK citizens?
- yeutterg 7y ago
  I see oarsinsync posted this comment: >The downside is every single thing you do is logged and tracked against your card, and associating a card with an individual is just one MTR ride with facial recognition away. Possible, although facial recognition seems to be used much less widely in HK than the mainland. Perhaps police checkpoints are another concern: you might get stopped entering or leaving the MTR if your Octopus card shows you were at one of the stations where the protests took pkace. Although, isn't it easy enough to get off at Central (where the protests were not taking place) and walk over to Admiralty/Wan Chai (where they were), only 1-2 stops away? Personally, I'd be more worried about discussing the protests via SMS or WeChat than getting there on my Octopus Card. Disclaimer: not a HK citizen.
- rswail 7y ago
  No, there are "anonymous" cards and "personalized" ones. Anonymous cards can't be refunded if you lose them, they also can't be linked to a bank account to automatically add value to the card "purse". A large percentage of the resident cardholders have the personalized cards because it means not having to use cash at machines to add value.
just_observing 7y ago
Do they have their mobile devices with them? Electronic trail. Did they appear in any photos? There's a trail. Did they buy anything in that locality? Did they call someone in that locality? Just not using a card would seem to offer little protection unless they take care of at least the above.

It’s interesting how what this girl said (which frankly could be exaggerated or even made up for retweets and exposure) has turned into the title of this submission. Like embedding a pair of tweets and saying everybody is outraged. Journalism in 2019. Isn’t it more likely that, for example, many of these people had to come from far away to protest and they simply do not have an octopus card or it’s not valid for this zone?

King-Aaron 7y ago
Considering the history behind the Chinese government's response to protesters, I would be willing to consider that the title and related tweet is somewhat accurate.
- SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
  Though I'd say that the hunch is right in this case, I'd be careful of falling into the trap of considering a news source more worthy just because it confirms your preexisting ideas.
k_sze 7y ago
There is no concept of “zone” with the Octopus card. Basically anybody who lives in HK has an Octopus card. Its use is very much entrenched. It’s more convenient than any other “modern” payment method you can think of, including Apple Pay, Google Pay, Samsung Pay, Visa payWave, etc. The only limitation is the daily automatic top-up limit. Which is to say that the desire for anonymity is the actual cause of the long queues, unless you think a lot of dark-haired and yellow-skinned foreigners who never had Octopus cards were flooding to the protest, which is unlikely.
rswail 7y ago
Having been involved in the development and installation of the Octopus card, nearly everyone in Hong Kong has one. The card is valid on all public transport in the SAR (except the ferries and trams) and is also used for retail like 7-11 and equivalent.

errnesto 7y ago

“This raises a lot of interesting questions about cash vs. cashless societies, and how in times of protest people may drastically adjust their usual economic behaviour.” Also what happens when you dont have the option to “adjust your behavior”? Like at least in Germany payments above some amount I don’t remember can not legally be paid in cache.

mstolpm 7y ago
Citation? As far as I know, there is no limit for paying cash in Germany. To fight crime, you have to show an ID if the amount is 10.000€ or more. In some other European countries, there are limits for paying with cash, but I don‘t think it applies to Germany at the time of writing.
kiliankoe 7y ago
There's definitely not a legal limit for what can be paid in cash in Germany. Withdrawals or deposits of several thousand euros might lead to banks looking into it to prevent money laundering and there are stores who refuse to accept cash at a certain point, but it's not an official thing.

oarsinsync 7y ago

Follow on tweet: > For additional context, since this photo doesn't show the whole scene: the line at every ticket machine stretched back 10+ meters. Anecdotal, but I've never seen a queue at a ticket machine in Hong Kong. Octopus is so entrenched as a vital necessity in Hong Kong you'll even hear comics making jokes about one of the only essentials in HK is an Octopus card (while things like clothing are optional) It's not at all like the minimal copycat that Oyster in London is. Your Octopus can be used in lieu of card or cash payments in many retail outlets, restaurants, vending machines, even some taxis, all over the SAR, not just on HK island. The downside is every single thing you do is logged and tracked against your card, and associating a card with an individual is just one MTR ride with facial recognition away.

SmellyGeekBoy 7y ago
As a tourist who has visited HK a few times now I have to say that I was really impressed by the convenience of the Octopus card. I'd never really considered the tracking implications.
z2 7y ago
Japan's IC card system is similar, and have been integrated across much of the country for universal use in transportation and cash-equivalent purchases. There are essentially two kinds, one that's unregistered, and one where you actually enter your personal information and get your name printed on the card, so that the system can disable the card and the balance can be replaced if the card is lost. At that point it's basically as trackable as any debit card.
dTal 7y ago
You can now use a contactless debit card in London in lieu of an Oyster card. I don't really see the difference between that and Octopus, now, except that contactless debit cards are a federated global system, which seems superior. Is the difference that Octopus cards can be obtained arbitrarily and anonymously? Because nobody gives a crap about being tracked by debit card usage, and they're already deanonymized.
- 7y ago

yeutterg 7y ago

As a frequent visitor to HK and Octopus Card holder, I don't believe I ever had to present ID to obtain my card. I just purchased it with cash at the Airport Express counter. Is it different for HK citizens?

yeutterg 7y ago
I see oarsinsync posted this comment: >The downside is every single thing you do is logged and tracked against your card, and associating a card with an individual is just one MTR ride with facial recognition away. Possible, although facial recognition seems to be used much less widely in HK than the mainland. Perhaps police checkpoints are another concern: you might get stopped entering or leaving the MTR if your Octopus card shows you were at one of the stations where the protests took pkace. Although, isn't it easy enough to get off at Central (where the protests were not taking place) and walk over to Admiralty/Wan Chai (where they were), only 1-2 stops away? Personally, I'd be more worried about discussing the protests via SMS or WeChat than getting there on my Octopus Card. Disclaimer: not a HK citizen.
rswail 7y ago
No, there are "anonymous" cards and "personalized" ones. Anonymous cards can't be refunded if you lose them, they also can't be linked to a bank account to automatically add value to the card "purse". A large percentage of the resident cardholders have the personalized cards because it means not having to use cash at machines to add value.

just_observing 7y ago

Do they have their mobile devices with them? Electronic trail. Did they appear in any photos? There's a trail. Did they buy anything in that locality? Did they call someone in that locality? Just not using a card would seem to offer little protection unless they take care of at least the above.