7 ms·

> How could a democratic society founded on self-governance depend on police governance and still be free? This is something that I see radically different bet

by kartan 7y ago

> How could a democratic society founded on self-governance depend on police governance and still be free? This is something that I see radically different between the USA and Europe. Europe had more authoritative states and police enforcement moved from repression force to citizens service. In the USA the path seems the opposite. From self-policing and freedom towards repression. > U.S. courts did more to encourage and sustain, rather than to check, the growing authority of the police. I guess that there was a need for more law enforcement. But, the trend never stopped even when it made no sense anymore. > The upshot, as time would tell, was not the protection of individuals’ privacy in their cars but the empowerment of highway patrollers and traffic cops who could take advantage of the thicket of procedures to exercise their power in discretionary, even discriminatory, ways. This is the pattern that I have seen. The problem with much of the cases that I see on the news is that there is no accountability. Police forces are going to make mistakes, and that mistakes can be lethal. But, I do not see self-reflection or improvement. When you make the same mistake a hundred times. It is not a mistake anymore but part of the system.

arethuza 7y ago
I'm not sure I'd say that the UK ever had the police as a "repression force" (leaving aside things like the '84-'85 Miners Strike) as, at least in theory, our policing is based on Peelian principles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles
- pjc50 7y ago
  RUC? The non-armament of the UK police does make a huge difference though.
  - arethuza 7y ago
    Ah yes - good example of where policing in the UK was actually rather horrible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Ulster_Constabulary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Ulster_Constabulary
- twic 7y ago
  In the UK, before the police were founded, public-order policing was done by soldiers, who were exactly the sort of repression force that kartan mentions. The Peterloo Massacre was perhaps the apogee of that kind of policing. The establishment of our modern warm and cuddly Peelers was a step in exactly this movement from repression force to citizens service.
- dsfyu404ed 7y ago
  >I'm not sure I'd say that the UK ever had the police as a "repression force" Said no Irishman ever.
  - arethuza 7y ago
    Yeah that is a mistake, but also worth noting that the majority in NI were (historically at least) generally rather in favour of what the RUC got up to. Depends I guess if you regard everyone on the island of Ireland as a Irishman!
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  I remember reading a pretty convincing article arguing that the introduction of cars - and abolition of walking the beat - was damaging to policing by consent. vague memory is that being in a car separated officers from being a part of the community they were policing. Can't find a link or remember the title so it may have been quite some time back - maybe when I still had an FT subscription. With current budgets and manpower they don't even patrol in cars that much any more, just respond to incidents. That can't be good for avoiding the impression of "us and them".
Shivetya 7y ago
So my question for Europeans is, how much influence in politics do your police have? In the US both police and sheriff unions have incredible influence at local, city, and even state levels. Some of the unions have been known to openly attack with billboards, having squad cars follow, and more, candidates who seek to reform policing and pension benefits; benefits which are excessive on any level of sane measurement. People worry about corporate influence should instead be clamoring to get these entities out of politics. So the excesses simply are the filtering down effect as judges are appointed in many areas by the same politicians who are under the thumb of these two very powerful political forces. After all, you can just imagine the FUD they can dispense for anyone who dares cross them. * note, I listed police and sheriff separately because the sheriff side is more commonly associated with prisons; California's sheriffs union is a notorious cause of the growth of that system. they are just that powerful
- pjc50 7y ago
  British police are not a huge influence on politics at the moment, and the extreme weakness of local authorities makes them barely worth influencing; police salaries are set centrally. There was an attempt to import the American system by establishing "police and crime commissioners". They are absurdly highly paid compared to most political appointments (especially councillors they replaced): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22624096 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22624096 - but they remain pretty invisible in the news. My pet theory is they were created to establish a funding channel to Conservative party candidates. All shootings by police are routinely investigated by the fairly independent IPCC. (The one big exception to all this was the history of the RUC in Northern Ireland, which is a whole other story)
- TomMarius 7y ago
  Czech Republic: Absolutely none, that would be unconstitutional. A state policeman can't even participate in local politics. We also have city "policemen" but these have almost zero privileges over citizens.
- garmain 7y ago
  Dutch: None.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
>This is the pattern that I have seen. The problem with much of the cases that I see on the news is that there is no accountability. Police forces are going to make mistakes, and that mistakes can be lethal. But, I do not see self-reflection or improvement. This. You can blame about cars, tazers, unions, culture all you want (and those things certainly do affect the shape the problem takes) but as long as the police get to keep screwing up with no proportionate negative consequences and nobody to deliver said consequences nothing will change.
Edmond 7y ago
The way to understand American policing is very simple, "Race". In general this is true of many other things about America that may not make sense to Europeans. All other explanations are extraneous at best and more likely, disingenuous. The current system of law enforcement almost from its inception was setup to protect whites from various "threats". Through out the history of the country these "threats" have taken various forms, be it native Americans during early settlement of the country, slaves, Urban crime or more currently immigrants. When you understand this core purpose of American law enforcement, it will start to make sense :)
- moate 7y ago
  I would have accepted "Class", but race on its own is too simple. Race is an aspect of class (or assumed to be) but the real fact is that policing and law enforcement in the US seems to have a huge issue with it's "Two Tract" system: Rich (often) White kid and Poor <race of your choice> kid are not going to get the same treatment by the police, courts, or media when they drunkenly drive their car into a Walmart. Remember, the people in power are white, but that does not mean that white people are the people in power.
  - Edmond 7y ago
    Class is definitely a part of it but it is unfortunately obscured by Race. If it were merely a class divide you would expect poor whites to align themselves with other groups that are disproportionately targeted by law enforcement but that doesn't happen. In fact poor whites are treated quite poorly (no pun intended) by lawless law enforcement in their communities. Ever seen an episode of cops in a trailer park(greatly satirized by the show Reno 911:))? It is disgusting how the cops sometimes behave...even so, have you ever seen a rally of poor whites to protest poor law enforcement treatment? There is an implied bargain that law enforcement exists to protect [whites] against "threats" from "others" and with that most whites avert their gaze when it comes to law enforcement abuse. There is a lot more that could be written on this topic, HN is probably not the best forum for that:)

by kartan 7y ago

arethuza 7y ago

I'm not sure I'd say that the UK ever had the police as a "repression force" (leaving aside things like the '84-'85 Miners Strike) as, at least in theory, our policing is based on Peelian principles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peelian_principles

pjc50 7y ago
RUC? The non-armament of the UK police does make a huge difference though.
- arethuza 7y ago
  Ah yes - good example of where policing in the UK was actually rather horrible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Ulster_Constabulary https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Ulster_Constabulary
twic 7y ago
In the UK, before the police were founded, public-order policing was done by soldiers, who were exactly the sort of repression force that kartan mentions. The Peterloo Massacre was perhaps the apogee of that kind of policing. The establishment of our modern warm and cuddly Peelers was a step in exactly this movement from repression force to citizens service.
dsfyu404ed 7y ago
>I'm not sure I'd say that the UK ever had the police as a "repression force" Said no Irishman ever.
- arethuza 7y ago
  Yeah that is a mistake, but also worth noting that the majority in NI were (historically at least) generally rather in favour of what the RUC got up to. Depends I guess if you regard everyone on the island of Ireland as a Irishman!
NeedMoreTea 7y ago
I remember reading a pretty convincing article arguing that the introduction of cars - and abolition of walking the beat - was damaging to policing by consent. vague memory is that being in a car separated officers from being a part of the community they were policing. Can't find a link or remember the title so it may have been quite some time back - maybe when I still had an FT subscription. With current budgets and manpower they don't even patrol in cars that much any more, just respond to incidents. That can't be good for avoiding the impression of "us and them".

Shivetya 7y ago

So my question for Europeans is, how much influence in politics do your police have? In the US both police and sheriff unions have incredible influence at local, city, and even state levels. Some of the unions have been known to openly attack with billboards, having squad cars follow, and more, candidates who seek to reform policing and pension benefits; benefits which are excessive on any level of sane measurement. People worry about corporate influence should instead be clamoring to get these entities out of politics. So the excesses simply are the filtering down effect as judges are appointed in many areas by the same politicians who are under the thumb of these two very powerful political forces. After all, you can just imagine the FUD they can dispense for anyone who dares cross them. * note, I listed police and sheriff separately because the sheriff side is more commonly associated with prisons; California's sheriffs union is a notorious cause of the growth of that system. they are just that powerful

pjc50 7y ago
British police are not a huge influence on politics at the moment, and the extreme weakness of local authorities makes them barely worth influencing; police salaries are set centrally. There was an attempt to import the American system by establishing "police and crime commissioners". They are absurdly highly paid compared to most political appointments (especially councillors they replaced): https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22624096 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22624096 - but they remain pretty invisible in the news. My pet theory is they were created to establish a funding channel to Conservative party candidates. All shootings by police are routinely investigated by the fairly independent IPCC. (The one big exception to all this was the history of the RUC in Northern Ireland, which is a whole other story)
TomMarius 7y ago
Czech Republic: Absolutely none, that would be unconstitutional. A state policeman can't even participate in local politics. We also have city "policemen" but these have almost zero privileges over citizens.
garmain 7y ago
Dutch: None.

dsfyu404ed 7y ago

>This is the pattern that I have seen. The problem with much of the cases that I see on the news is that there is no accountability. Police forces are going to make mistakes, and that mistakes can be lethal. But, I do not see self-reflection or improvement. This. You can blame about cars, tazers, unions, culture all you want (and those things certainly do affect the shape the problem takes) but as long as the police get to keep screwing up with no proportionate negative consequences and nobody to deliver said consequences nothing will change.

Edmond 7y ago

The way to understand American policing is very simple, "Race". In general this is true of many other things about America that may not make sense to Europeans. All other explanations are extraneous at best and more likely, disingenuous. The current system of law enforcement almost from its inception was setup to protect whites from various "threats". Through out the history of the country these "threats" have taken various forms, be it native Americans during early settlement of the country, slaves, Urban crime or more currently immigrants. When you understand this core purpose of American law enforcement, it will start to make sense :)

moate 7y ago
I would have accepted "Class", but race on its own is too simple. Race is an aspect of class (or assumed to be) but the real fact is that policing and law enforcement in the US seems to have a huge issue with it's "Two Tract" system: Rich (often) White kid and Poor <race of your choice> kid are not going to get the same treatment by the police, courts, or media when they drunkenly drive their car into a Walmart. Remember, the people in power are white, but that does not mean that white people are the people in power.
- Edmond 7y ago
  Class is definitely a part of it but it is unfortunately obscured by Race. If it were merely a class divide you would expect poor whites to align themselves with other groups that are disproportionately targeted by law enforcement but that doesn't happen. In fact poor whites are treated quite poorly (no pun intended) by lawless law enforcement in their communities. Ever seen an episode of cops in a trailer park(greatly satirized by the show Reno 911:))? It is disgusting how the cops sometimes behave...even so, have you ever seen a rally of poor whites to protest poor law enforcement treatment? There is an implied bargain that law enforcement exists to protect [whites] against "threats" from "others" and with that most whites avert their gaze when it comes to law enforcement abuse. There is a lot more that could be written on this topic, HN is probably not the best forum for that:)