6 ms·

Swiss women strike for more money, time and respect

42 points by stojano 7y ago

phosphophyllite 7y ago
Cheap politics. Fried rights. Rainbow slogans. FREE power.
ketsa 7y ago
What a pleasure this morning, lot of places in public transportation, fluid traffic, people arrive at work with a smile, then we can work on an exceptionally zen atmosphere. They can repeat this operation as often as they please.
python_gt_r3 7y ago
In 21st century it's fashionable to lobby the government to assign you rents. If you don't protest, you only get what the market thinks is fair. That's not enough.
ugqtq 7y ago
"stage", well said. >However, women in Switzerland still earn on average 20% less than men, they are under-represented in management positions, and childcare remains not only expensive, but in short supply. Women are less valuable? How will a strike solve this? I mean if this was true and I was a business owner I would only hire women because I could pay 20 % less. But of course that's not the way it works. Those "facts" are manipulative.
- DecayingOrganic 7y ago
  I believe the research in question does not speak on the grounds such as to suggest women earn 20% less for the same job vis-a-vis men, but rather claims due to women are being under-represented in a variety of high-level jobs, on average, they earn less. And the reason may not be in the realm of misogynist inclinations depicted at high levels of government, it may be the case on average women choose professions that pay less. We know that men are more likely to go into “nerdy” professions such as math or engineering, whereas women are more likely to go into the caring professions and to spend more time looking after children [0]. 0: Geary (2010); Halpern (2012); Maccoby and Jacklin (1974)
  - ugqtq 7y ago
    Do men and women have the same level of education and have they chosen the same career paths in average? If they haven't then that 20 % is meaningless. As far as I know men and women can choose to get the degrees that they want and can choose to pursue the careers that they want. If they haven't chosen to do so what do they expect? Ah I see you edited. Yes that was exactly my point. If they expect to get the same money for nursing that you can get for designing rockets then that's basically Communism.
    - nickik 7y ago
      More woman at my school in switzerland had the education to go into IT and yet we had 3-4 woman in 3 classes. That has zero to do with access to education and everything with personal choice. One can argue its a society problem, but its not an education problem. Woman are overrepresented and get more education in general.
      - mlang23 7y ago
        I experienced pretty much the same thing during the time I went to school. I specialized in IT during school already. We had about 2/3 women and 1/3 man. AFAIK, none of the women actually started to work in IT. Two or three man did.
kartan 7y ago
I see just two comments right now and I see a lot of cynism. Things are better today than in the past thanks to people fighting for their and others rights. And the job is not finished. Democracy is not something that happens once each four years. It's important to vote, but as important is to express your dissatisfaction with the wrongdoings of the system. > Ms Born, who joined a newsroom staffed entirely by men in 1986, is quietly optimistic. "We've achieved some good things since 1991," she points out. "We have maternity leave now." Parental leave seams such a natural right to have that it's strange that there exists any opposition to it. Mothers and fathers benefit from it. Fighting for women's rights is also figthing for a more just and balance society for everyone.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- chli 7y ago
  > Parental leave seams such a natural right to have that it's strange that there exists any opposition to it. Mothers and fathers benefit from it. Fighting for women's rights is also figthing for a more just and balance society for everyone. Yet our government (I'm swiss) stubbornly refuses to introduce a paternity leave. This will hopefully change in the coming years because they will be forced to through an initiative (one collected enough signatures already and a vote will follow).
- kstenerud 7y ago
  > Parental leave seams such a natural right to have that it's strange that there exists any opposition to it. There's opposition to it for a number of reasons: 1. Employers are people, and peoples first reactions to anything is almost universally selfish: "how does this negatively affect me? And why should I suffer financially for someone else's gain?" 2. Most policy makers are still men, and policy makers only decide policy based on their own experiences. If they haven't suffered from lack of maternity leave, they won't prioritize it as an issue. Protest is a means of shaking the sleeping masses and getting your message into the public consciousness. That's how you make change happen when nobody in power is motivated to change. Once you build enough momentum, they have to change.
s9w 7y ago
> Swiss women's pensions are 37% lower than men's, primarily because women take time out from work to raise their children
- colechristensen 7y ago
  Is this right or wrong? I am all for taking parental leave supported with full pay and benefits for a good long time, but is there a point where that support stops? Six months? A year? Two? It's not for everyone but some people will exit the work force for years for family. I don't think it is surprising or discrimination to expect there to be a gender bias in people making that decision. Those people are included in statistics. Is it right to expect that choice to have financial consequences or do we want to fully financially support that decision for some as a society and make it a money neutral decision?
  - config_yml 7y ago
    Parental leave (actually only for women) is 14 weeks on 80% pay. After that many women take unpaid leave to enlongate that time. After that they reduce to 20%-60% time on the job or quit their all together to raise their children for a couple of years. This reduces their pension, because they work less.
- kstenerud 7y ago
  And in a world where you can't both live off the man's income anymore, that's completely unfair. Forcing people to trade their future income and security to raise kids is terrible.
  - BigJono 7y ago
    How do you fix it? Any way you look at it, the person spending 12 hours a day every day sharpening their skills is going to have a much higher income on average than the person that spends their time raising kids.
    - kstenerud 7y ago
colechristensen 7y ago
What does "done" look like? I am not at all that anything is, but I am saying in many cases we are closer to the finish line than the starting line. (If we come to think of it there are things which have been completed to the extent that many people don't even know they existed) In some cases the good fight for equality has transferred into something besides good or equal. When do you start thinking about how to cross the finish line and what should you do?
chrisco255 7y ago
This article is international politics and is off topic. Doesn't even reference tech companies.
mlang23 7y ago
Absolute equality is not realistic. People are not equal, individuals are different from eachother. And I say that as someone belonging to a minority group. However, I am convinced that equality can not be forced. Differences are what make us interesting. And yes, there are differences between the sexes, no matter how you twist and/or turn it. Trying to ignore those is unrealistic and a fair bit naive.
- ketsa 7y ago
  Exactly. Blondes are paid more than the rest of women. Tall people are paid more.... Any criteria you select can lead to differences in outcomes.
smackay 7y ago
Context is always important. Switzerland still has conscription in to the military and the culture that comes with it is very strong and male dominated - though it's importance has lessened somewhat. Switzerland is a modern country and many have the same liberal values we all know but there appears to be a sizeable proportion which regard women for their, shall we say, utilitarian value and little else. Given this backdrop, this strike shows that while there has been progress there is still a long way to go. Comparisons with the situation in other countries is a little unfair.
- nickik 7y ago
  The military is a joke in Switzerland. Its literally called green holyday. More and more guys, including myself are opting out. All you have to not go is put your hand up when the military guy askes who doesn't want to go. I am Switzerland so I don't have the context maybe but calling swiss culture male dominated seems pretty strange to me. Can you explain what that even means?
- wizzairflyer 7y ago
  I live here and I really don't see a strong and male dominated culture, no more than when I was abroad in countries without conscription. It's especially not the case in jobs requiring a degree, because degree holders are way more likely to have opted out and done either the civil service or pretended they were unfit and pay an extra tax instead. However I guess it can slow things down from a different angle because currently the only gender currently legally oppressed is men, since the law guarantee the same rights to all but forces men into the conscription. This can breed some resentment, especially since progressives regularly fail to address it properly.
nickik 7y ago
> childcare remains not only expensive, but in short supply. Childcare is expsneive period and it will still be if you force other people to pay it. I have never understood why people demand that society pays for their children. Having children is a 100% voluntary activity in todays day and age. I don't demand that my hobbies get payed by society. The taxes already massivly subsidies children by getting child money, paying for the whole school system and many other things as well. I see zero reasons why one should just be able to have children and have child care and school payed for the first 20 years of your childs live.
- brutally-honest 7y ago
  Your hobbies are, in the grand scheme of things, unimportant. Having a next generation growing up well-educated and well-fed is, in the grand scheme of things, important. Raising children is not a hobby, it's a social necessity.
  - nickik 7y ago
    Tons of people make a choice to have children because the would like to have and raise children. I don't see how that is not the same as hobby. Its a totally voluntary activity that primarly benefits yourself and your own family and most people do it because they just want to. > Having a next generation growing up well-educated and well-fed is, in the grand scheme of things, important. That is already provided currently. That and much more. > Raising children is not a hobby, it's a social necessity. Outside of nationalist 'we need to have a strong population' or basic evolutionary 'human survival' concerns I really don't see how it is a necessity for the actual people living in the country, specially all of those that don't have or want children. People think this because this is how they have already thought about it but I really don't see how that makes sense for actual people living here.
    - brutally-honest 7y ago
      > Its a totally voluntary activity that primarly benefits yourself and your own family and most people do it because they just want to. I don't think the main beneficiary of raising children is their family. That child will one day grow into adult who will contribute to society with ideas and labour. > Outside of nationalist 'we need to have a strong population' or basic evolutionary 'human survival' concerns I really don't see how it is a necessity for the actual people living in the country, specially all of those that don't have or want children. Well, I don't think people who don't have or don't want children should have them. But within a society, someone needs to have them. Because someone needs to be your waiter, your janitor, your doctor, lawyer, grocer, plumber – I mean, every activity that is provided to us is provided by someone who once was a child. Everyone we work for and with was also once a child. Given that both people who want and don't want children benefit of there being a society at all, and this society is made out of grown-up children, it's in society's interest to make it easier. Raising a family is great but is also a burden. The benefits however are shared with the society at large. Also for people who don't want children to be able to not have them and still enjoy the benefits, it makes sense to try to spread the burden widely among society.
Funes- 7y ago
>women [...] are under-represented in management positions They are hugely under-represented in blue-collar jobs, as well. And over-represented in the health sciences, many fields of academia, and social work. Would all that be unfair to men?
- ketsa 7y ago
  Women are under represented in construction. Women are under represented in waste management. Women are under represented in front line duties. ...

42 points by stojano 7y ago

Cheap politics. Fried rights. Rainbow slogans. FREE power.

What a pleasure this morning, lot of places in public transportation, fluid traffic, people arrive at work with a smile, then we can work on an exceptionally zen atmosphere. They can repeat this operation as often as they please.

python_gt_r3 7y ago

In 21st century it's fashionable to lobby the government to assign you rents. If you don't protest, you only get what the market thinks is fair. That's not enough.

ugqtq 7y ago

"stage", well said. >However, women in Switzerland still earn on average 20% less than men, they are under-represented in management positions, and childcare remains not only expensive, but in short supply. Women are less valuable? How will a strike solve this? I mean if this was true and I was a business owner I would only hire women because I could pay 20 % less. But of course that's not the way it works. Those "facts" are manipulative.

DecayingOrganic 7y ago
I believe the research in question does not speak on the grounds such as to suggest women earn 20% less for the same job vis-a-vis men, but rather claims due to women are being under-represented in a variety of high-level jobs, on average, they earn less. And the reason may not be in the realm of misogynist inclinations depicted at high levels of government, it may be the case on average women choose professions that pay less. We know that men are more likely to go into “nerdy” professions such as math or engineering, whereas women are more likely to go into the caring professions and to spend more time looking after children [0]. 0: Geary (2010); Halpern (2012); Maccoby and Jacklin (1974)
- ugqtq 7y ago
  Do men and women have the same level of education and have they chosen the same career paths in average? If they haven't then that 20 % is meaningless. As far as I know men and women can choose to get the degrees that they want and can choose to pursue the careers that they want. If they haven't chosen to do so what do they expect? Ah I see you edited. Yes that was exactly my point. If they expect to get the same money for nursing that you can get for designing rockets then that's basically Communism.
  - nickik 7y ago
    More woman at my school in switzerland had the education to go into IT and yet we had 3-4 woman in 3 classes. That has zero to do with access to education and everything with personal choice. One can argue its a society problem, but its not an education problem. Woman are overrepresented and get more education in general.
    - mlang23 7y ago
      I experienced pretty much the same thing during the time I went to school. I specialized in IT during school already. We had about 2/3 women and 1/3 man. AFAIK, none of the women actually started to work in IT. Two or three man did.

kartan 7y ago

I see just two comments right now and I see a lot of cynism. Things are better today than in the past thanks to people fighting for their and others rights. And the job is not finished. Democracy is not something that happens once each four years. It's important to vote, but as important is to express your dissatisfaction with the wrongdoings of the system. > Ms Born, who joined a newsroom staffed entirely by men in 1986, is quietly optimistic. "We've achieved some good things since 1991," she points out. "We have maternity leave now." Parental leave seams such a natural right to have that it's strange that there exists any opposition to it. Mothers and fathers benefit from it. Fighting for women's rights is also figthing for a more just and balance society for everyone.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
chli 7y ago
> Parental leave seams such a natural right to have that it's strange that there exists any opposition to it. Mothers and fathers benefit from it. Fighting for women's rights is also figthing for a more just and balance society for everyone. Yet our government (I'm swiss) stubbornly refuses to introduce a paternity leave. This will hopefully change in the coming years because they will be forced to through an initiative (one collected enough signatures already and a vote will follow).
kstenerud 7y ago
> Parental leave seams such a natural right to have that it's strange that there exists any opposition to it. There's opposition to it for a number of reasons: 1. Employers are people, and peoples first reactions to anything is almost universally selfish: "how does this negatively affect me? And why should I suffer financially for someone else's gain?" 2. Most policy makers are still men, and policy makers only decide policy based on their own experiences. If they haven't suffered from lack of maternity leave, they won't prioritize it as an issue. Protest is a means of shaking the sleeping masses and getting your message into the public consciousness. That's how you make change happen when nobody in power is motivated to change. Once you build enough momentum, they have to change.

s9w 7y ago

> Swiss women's pensions are 37% lower than men's, primarily because women take time out from work to raise their children

colechristensen 7y ago
Is this right or wrong? I am all for taking parental leave supported with full pay and benefits for a good long time, but is there a point where that support stops? Six months? A year? Two? It's not for everyone but some people will exit the work force for years for family. I don't think it is surprising or discrimination to expect there to be a gender bias in people making that decision. Those people are included in statistics. Is it right to expect that choice to have financial consequences or do we want to fully financially support that decision for some as a society and make it a money neutral decision?
- config_yml 7y ago
  Parental leave (actually only for women) is 14 weeks on 80% pay. After that many women take unpaid leave to enlongate that time. After that they reduce to 20%-60% time on the job or quit their all together to raise their children for a couple of years. This reduces their pension, because they work less.
kstenerud 7y ago
And in a world where you can't both live off the man's income anymore, that's completely unfair. Forcing people to trade their future income and security to raise kids is terrible.
- BigJono 7y ago
  How do you fix it? Any way you look at it, the person spending 12 hours a day every day sharpening their skills is going to have a much higher income on average than the person that spends their time raising kids.
  - kstenerud 7y ago

colechristensen 7y ago

What does "done" look like? I am not at all that anything is, but I am saying in many cases we are closer to the finish line than the starting line. (If we come to think of it there are things which have been completed to the extent that many people don't even know they existed) In some cases the good fight for equality has transferred into something besides good or equal. When do you start thinking about how to cross the finish line and what should you do?

chrisco255 7y ago

This article is international politics and is off topic. Doesn't even reference tech companies.

mlang23 7y ago

Absolute equality is not realistic. People are not equal, individuals are different from eachother. And I say that as someone belonging to a minority group. However, I am convinced that equality can not be forced. Differences are what make us interesting. And yes, there are differences between the sexes, no matter how you twist and/or turn it. Trying to ignore those is unrealistic and a fair bit naive.

ketsa 7y ago
Exactly. Blondes are paid more than the rest of women. Tall people are paid more.... Any criteria you select can lead to differences in outcomes.

smackay 7y ago

Context is always important. Switzerland still has conscription in to the military and the culture that comes with it is very strong and male dominated - though it's importance has lessened somewhat. Switzerland is a modern country and many have the same liberal values we all know but there appears to be a sizeable proportion which regard women for their, shall we say, utilitarian value and little else. Given this backdrop, this strike shows that while there has been progress there is still a long way to go. Comparisons with the situation in other countries is a little unfair.

nickik 7y ago
The military is a joke in Switzerland. Its literally called green holyday. More and more guys, including myself are opting out. All you have to not go is put your hand up when the military guy askes who doesn't want to go. I am Switzerland so I don't have the context maybe but calling swiss culture male dominated seems pretty strange to me. Can you explain what that even means?
wizzairflyer 7y ago
I live here and I really don't see a strong and male dominated culture, no more than when I was abroad in countries without conscription. It's especially not the case in jobs requiring a degree, because degree holders are way more likely to have opted out and done either the civil service or pretended they were unfit and pay an extra tax instead. However I guess it can slow things down from a different angle because currently the only gender currently legally oppressed is men, since the law guarantee the same rights to all but forces men into the conscription. This can breed some resentment, especially since progressives regularly fail to address it properly.

nickik 7y ago

> childcare remains not only expensive, but in short supply. Childcare is expsneive period and it will still be if you force other people to pay it. I have never understood why people demand that society pays for their children. Having children is a 100% voluntary activity in todays day and age. I don't demand that my hobbies get payed by society. The taxes already massivly subsidies children by getting child money, paying for the whole school system and many other things as well. I see zero reasons why one should just be able to have children and have child care and school payed for the first 20 years of your childs live.

brutally-honest 7y ago
Your hobbies are, in the grand scheme of things, unimportant. Having a next generation growing up well-educated and well-fed is, in the grand scheme of things, important. Raising children is not a hobby, it's a social necessity.
- nickik 7y ago
  Tons of people make a choice to have children because the would like to have and raise children. I don't see how that is not the same as hobby. Its a totally voluntary activity that primarly benefits yourself and your own family and most people do it because they just want to. > Having a next generation growing up well-educated and well-fed is, in the grand scheme of things, important. That is already provided currently. That and much more. > Raising children is not a hobby, it's a social necessity. Outside of nationalist 'we need to have a strong population' or basic evolutionary 'human survival' concerns I really don't see how it is a necessity for the actual people living in the country, specially all of those that don't have or want children. People think this because this is how they have already thought about it but I really don't see how that makes sense for actual people living here.
  - brutally-honest 7y ago
    > Its a totally voluntary activity that primarly benefits yourself and your own family and most people do it because they just want to. I don't think the main beneficiary of raising children is their family. That child will one day grow into adult who will contribute to society with ideas and labour. > Outside of nationalist 'we need to have a strong population' or basic evolutionary 'human survival' concerns I really don't see how it is a necessity for the actual people living in the country, specially all of those that don't have or want children. Well, I don't think people who don't have or don't want children should have them. But within a society, someone needs to have them. Because someone needs to be your waiter, your janitor, your doctor, lawyer, grocer, plumber – I mean, every activity that is provided to us is provided by someone who once was a child. Everyone we work for and with was also once a child. Given that both people who want and don't want children benefit of there being a society at all, and this society is made out of grown-up children, it's in society's interest to make it easier. Raising a family is great but is also a burden. The benefits however are shared with the society at large. Also for people who don't want children to be able to not have them and still enjoy the benefits, it makes sense to try to spread the burden widely among society.

Funes- 7y ago

>women [...] are under-represented in management positions They are hugely under-represented in blue-collar jobs, as well. And over-represented in the health sciences, many fields of academia, and social work. Would all that be unfair to men?

ketsa 7y ago
Women are under represented in construction. Women are under represented in waste management. Women are under represented in front line duties. ...