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No, Riot/Mobile explicitly warns and prompts you to opt in if you try to discover contacts by email/phone number. It looks like this on Android: "Riot needs p

No, Riot/Mobile explicitly warns and prompts you to opt in if you try to discover contacts by email/phone number. It looks like this on Android: "Riot needs permission to access your address book contacts to find other Matrix users based on their email and phone numbers. Please allow access on the next pop-up to discover address book users reachable from Riot." That said, this analysis does have a few valid points in it, specifically: * We should probably provide a click-thru when users interact with 3rd party identity lookup servers or integration managers * We should hash contacts when doing bulk lookups * Riot/Web has a bug where it talks to the integration manager too frequently (https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/5846 https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/5846) * Notary servers should eventually be removed entirely (as per MSC1228). However, most of the rest of it is alarmist and disproportionate FUD, plus the author has sadly forgotten to disclose that he's working on a hostile fork of Matrix. A point by point response is at https://matrix.org/~matthew/Response_to_-_Notes_on_privacy_and_data_collection_of_Matrix.pdf https://matrix.org/~matthew/Response_to_-_Notes_on_privacy_a... fwiw (apologies for the PDF, but Google Docs doesn't seem to expose a read-only view of commented docs.)

maxidorius 7y ago
I would appreciate if we could stick to the points brought up in the notes instead of trying to discredit the work of several people (writers, reviewers, sanity checkers) who equally contributed to it. The document is clear that it puts the default behaviour and explanation next to what users understand out of it and expect, just like what the privacy policy of Matrix.org is based of in section 2.1.1. We have asked several technical and non-technical people alike, from our family members to our friends to people in our communities. And the feedback is unanimous: They did not understand nor expect what we described. In terms of actually of handling the issues, the scalar issue is one we brought up with Ben months ago in private as per your disclosure policy, and yet nothing was done. This is just an example of a long list of issues brought up over the years. The point of the document is not to find justification for what is happening, but to inform users that it is happening. An attacker got access to your systems which contained logs from which such data can be gathered. It is important that users who self-host and do not expect such data to get out realize that it does so they can take appropriate action. The document might feel alarmist, certainly. It does not feel alarmist because we wrote it. It feels alarmist because the behaviour described is happening and nothing is done about it. It is not discussed anywhere. Attempts to do so are shut down. But it does not change anything: leaks are happening right now on thousands of servers and for millions of users (up to 9M, as per Matrix.org figure) and every person who we showed this to before publishing had the same reaction: "I never expected such data to go out like this. I am worried". As for Grid, we made a specific effort out of respect for the Matrix.org people not to mention it or steer towards it. Yes we have forked Matrix. No it is not hostile, despite your continuous claims to label it as such. We think it is time to stop talking about all the good reasons why, in the 5 years it took to get Matrix out of beta, there was just no time to deal with such leaks. We think it is time to start talking about how we can make sure it stops from happening and which decisions lead to it happening for so long unnoticed. You wrote the software. Start respecting your users privacy.
- fock 7y ago
  And while your comments are valid, a large part of your comments are actual FUD, because every other chat application out there behaves the same (and for a large portion of the user base, matrix probably is just yet another chat app...)?!? Especially your ongoing notion of metadata as private information which should be hidden is funny: how do you intend to do that? Short of wrapping your application into Tor (which seriously impacts performance letting your average family member happily pass it), I can't think of any method not including any BS-Bingo (how about a blockchain...). I agree that the vector.im-identity service seems really unnecessary and it reminds of Mozillas approach to sync (yeaah, the ones with your cited manifesto cough); still, I was well aware that this means regularly contacting this server and probably also checking my contacts DB against it (as well as having metadata on my browser, like every other website + it's 23 ad-networks, uuh)? Also for anyone interested in actually hosting a server it's really spelled out plainly, that this is a measure for convenience and you can still host your own server – btw: did you ever try to integrate federation into syndent (you might show the world your archived Issue/PR...). The part about the integration server is indeed worrying (but not you, putting at the end?!?) because without it, I don't really see the value proposition of matrix compared to plain old XMPP (and I wonder how you intend to monetize on kamax...). And I wasn't really aware of it... The other parts - I didn't give an eMail, wasn't a problem for me and I'm seriously not imaging any way to resolve this w/o aforementioned BS-bingo or yet another personal information (private/public key, which is beyond scope for most people + creates its own set of problems (people with unencrypted keys on their machines...) - so the only way for matrix to read messages is by adding a bot? can the scalar.vector.im server initiate that too? otherwise your claim that vector.im can read all your messages is just BS - you never mention that encryption by default would be cool. How will kamax.io handle this?
  - rasengan 7y ago
    BitMessage absolutely obfuscates the metadata FYI.
    - fock 7y ago
      from wikipedia > Bitmessage was conceived by software developer Jonathan Warren, who based its design on the decentralized digital currency, bitcoin. So, looks like "blockchain"? Anyone else? From the FAQ: https://bitmessage.org/wiki/FAQ https://bitmessage.org/wiki/FAQ > On average it should take 8 minutes from the time you click the send button to the time you receive a response. Whew. Privacy really costs.
meruru 7y ago
>Riot/Mobile explicitly warns and prompts you to opt in if you try to discover contacts by email/phone number. It looks like this on Android This is way better than the behavior of proprietary programs, but I'd much prefer if the program actively discouraged uploading private information. I can deny the permission myself, but there's not much I can do about other people's behavior, and with the way Riot currently works they are going to end up uploading my personal information. A client that isn't even able to access contacts is one of my top wishes for Matrix right now. As soon as that appears I'm going to start recommending it to everyone over miniVector.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
claudius 7y ago
I am confused by the e-mail issue. The OP says that Riot says: > If you don't specify an email address, you won't be able to reset your password. Are you sure? In your response on pg. 4, you say: > Commented [11]: Yup, this is the point of the service -to map email addresses and phone numbers to matrix IDs. Is it possible to specify an e-mail address to be able to reset passwords without making this e-mail address public? Clearly, this should be the default setting if someone enters an e-mail address after the above prompt by Riot.
- Arathorn 7y ago
  So email addresses are used for two purposes in Matrix: "administrative contact" for an account (for password reset), as per https://matrix.org/docs/spec/client_server/r0.5.0#adding-account-administrative-contact-information https://matrix.org/docs/spec/client_server/r0.5.0#adding-acc..., and for discovering users' mxids by email address (as per https://matrix.org/docs/spec/identity_service/r0.2.0#post-matrix-identity-api-v1-3pid-bind https://matrix.org/docs/spec/identity_service/r0.2.0#post-ma...). At registration, if you specify an email address, Riot does sets it both for password reset and for mxid discovery. You (and the OP) are right that this should be clearer - it boils down to the fact that we need to add UI to remind the user that they're using an identity server (with given terms of use) and to confirm this is what they want. We could also split it into separate actions (one to set it for password reset, and one to use it for discovery), and indeed before Riot this is how it used to be (there was a checkbox in Matrix Console at registration to let the user choose whether to bind their email). This got lost in Riot because of concerns that it made the registration UX too noisy and complicated (especially with custom HS & IS URLs flying around the place), so it currently binds their email by default. I've just filed https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/10054 https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/10054 to track addressing this. You said "making this e-mail address public" in your question - it's worth noting that binding a 3PID does not publish it in a public list; instead, it means it can be used as a key to look up your MXID for users who already know your email address. In terms of the other valid points the analysis raises, I've also filed a bug to track hashing contact details when doing lookups (https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/2130 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/2130, although i could have sworn we had one already). The other two issues (Riot/Web talking to Scalar too much, and the desire to remove notary servers entirely) already have bugs - https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/5846 https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/5846 and https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/1228 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/1228 respectively).
majewsky 7y ago
> "Riot needs permission to access your address book contacts to find other Matrix users based on their email and phone numbers. Please allow access on the next pop-up to discover address book users reachable from Riot." I know very well that concise wording in UIs is incredibly hard, but this wording is misleading. It makes it sound like Riot will not work unless I allow access to the address book. I'd suggest something like this: > Riot can check your address book to find other Matrix users based on their email and phone numbers. If you agree to sharing your address book for this purpose, please allow access on the next pop-up.
- Arathorn 7y ago
  Yeah, that's way better - thanks. have pushed the change at https://github.com/vector-im/riot-android/commit/786bf017852fad184bf3b7b2a0e51eb20b6a87b6 https://github.com/vector-im/riot-android/commit/786bf017852...
  - dharma1 7y ago
    10 minutes from a hacker news comment to a github commit. Respect
    - masterfooo 7y ago
      That is just a text change, very superficial
  - meruru 7y ago
    Much much better. Thanks!
- nfoz 7y ago
  I definitely agree that your wording change is a big improvement. Why can't Riot "check my address book to find other Matrix users" without sharing it to their server? Could the client make a one-way hash for each contact and send those to the server to compare against hashes of other contacts? So in your wording, it's not clear that B (agree to sharing my whole address book) follows from A (Riot wants to check my address book for a purpose). Actually it's not clear if "agree to sharing your address book" means sharing it with the client app, or sharing it with a remote server that someone else controls.
gloflo 7y ago
> Please allow access on the next pop-up to discover address book users reachable from Riot. Please don't say please to make people perform questionable privacy violations. How about: "If you want Riot to determine which of your contacts also use Matrix and to easily enable you to talk to them via Riot, you can allow Riot to access your contact list. Note: This will upload all your contacts' details, as stored on your phone, including addresses, birthdays, notes, and more if available to matrix.org. Here is the privacy policy." Or something like that, whatever it really does. Disclaimer: I like matrix :)))
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
jeltz 7y ago
Does hashing really provide much extra privacy when looking up phone numbers or email addresses. Especially for phone numbers the entropy is tiny, it is trivial to precompute all hashes for all phone numbers in most countries.
- Arathorn 7y ago
  it doesn't provide much extra privacy, given the rainbow tables are trivial to compute, as you say, which is why we haven't prioritised this historically. moxie wrote well about this at https://signal.org/blog/contact-discovery/ https://signal.org/blog/contact-discovery/. however, it does provide some defence-in-depth against Identity Server inspecting the email & phone number details in plaintext, so we'll go sort it out as per https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/2130 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/2130
pmlnr 7y ago
> "Riot needs permission to access your address book contacts to find other Matrix users based on their email and phone numbers. Please allow access on the next pop-up to discover address book users reachable from Riot." access != upload This is the same wording how Facebook/LinkedIn/etc got our contact list. Also: > a hostile fork What? Matrix is Free Software. There is no such thing as "hostile fork".
- eeZah7Ux 7y ago
  > What? Matrix is Free Software. There is no such thing as "hostile fork". Of course there is.
- jasonzemos 7y ago
  It's possible to have a fork where both sides of the fork remain compatible. A hostile fork will lose this property by one or both sides of the fork causing divergence on purpose (generally the incumbent side) to make it difficult for the other side (generally the parasitic side). This is certainly a real phenomenon, regardless of whether the software is free or proprietary.
liftm 7y ago
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but: * You could fully encrypt push notifications?
- Arathorn 7y ago
  Push notifications these days don't contain any contents; they just tell the app to wake up and sync and display a local notification - so there's not even really anything to encrypt.
maxidorius 7y ago
We have answered to your claims of "being alarmist", "disproportionate FUD" and that we did not forget to disclose we are working on a fork which is not hostile. https://gist.github.com/maxidorius/5736fd09c9194b7a6dc03b6b8d7220d0#gistcomment-2945336 https://gist.github.com/maxidorius/5736fd09c9194b7a6dc03b6b8...

maxidorius 7y ago

I would appreciate if we could stick to the points brought up in the notes instead of trying to discredit the work of several people (writers, reviewers, sanity checkers) who equally contributed to it. The document is clear that it puts the default behaviour and explanation next to what users understand out of it and expect, just like what the privacy policy of Matrix.org is based of in section 2.1.1. We have asked several technical and non-technical people alike, from our family members to our friends to people in our communities. And the feedback is unanimous: They did not understand nor expect what we described. In terms of actually of handling the issues, the scalar issue is one we brought up with Ben months ago in private as per your disclosure policy, and yet nothing was done. This is just an example of a long list of issues brought up over the years. The point of the document is not to find justification for what is happening, but to inform users that it is happening. An attacker got access to your systems which contained logs from which such data can be gathered. It is important that users who self-host and do not expect such data to get out realize that it does so they can take appropriate action. The document might feel alarmist, certainly. It does not feel alarmist because we wrote it. It feels alarmist because the behaviour described is happening and nothing is done about it. It is not discussed anywhere. Attempts to do so are shut down. But it does not change anything: leaks are happening right now on thousands of servers and for millions of users (up to 9M, as per Matrix.org figure) and every person who we showed this to before publishing had the same reaction: "I never expected such data to go out like this. I am worried". As for Grid, we made a specific effort out of respect for the Matrix.org people not to mention it or steer towards it. Yes we have forked Matrix. No it is not hostile, despite your continuous claims to label it as such. We think it is time to stop talking about all the good reasons why, in the 5 years it took to get Matrix out of beta, there was just no time to deal with such leaks. We think it is time to start talking about how we can make sure it stops from happening and which decisions lead to it happening for so long unnoticed. You wrote the software. Start respecting your users privacy.

fock 7y ago
And while your comments are valid, a large part of your comments are actual FUD, because every other chat application out there behaves the same (and for a large portion of the user base, matrix probably is just yet another chat app...)?!? Especially your ongoing notion of metadata as private information which should be hidden is funny: how do you intend to do that? Short of wrapping your application into Tor (which seriously impacts performance letting your average family member happily pass it), I can't think of any method not including any BS-Bingo (how about a blockchain...). I agree that the vector.im-identity service seems really unnecessary and it reminds of Mozillas approach to sync (yeaah, the ones with your cited manifesto cough); still, I was well aware that this means regularly contacting this server and probably also checking my contacts DB against it (as well as having metadata on my browser, like every other website + it's 23 ad-networks, uuh)? Also for anyone interested in actually hosting a server it's really spelled out plainly, that this is a measure for convenience and you can still host your own server – btw: did you ever try to integrate federation into syndent (you might show the world your archived Issue/PR...). The part about the integration server is indeed worrying (but not you, putting at the end?!?) because without it, I don't really see the value proposition of matrix compared to plain old XMPP (and I wonder how you intend to monetize on kamax...). And I wasn't really aware of it... The other parts - I didn't give an eMail, wasn't a problem for me and I'm seriously not imaging any way to resolve this w/o aforementioned BS-bingo or yet another personal information (private/public key, which is beyond scope for most people + creates its own set of problems (people with unencrypted keys on their machines...) - so the only way for matrix to read messages is by adding a bot? can the scalar.vector.im server initiate that too? otherwise your claim that vector.im can read all your messages is just BS - you never mention that encryption by default would be cool. How will kamax.io handle this?
- rasengan 7y ago
  BitMessage absolutely obfuscates the metadata FYI.
  - fock 7y ago
    from wikipedia > Bitmessage was conceived by software developer Jonathan Warren, who based its design on the decentralized digital currency, bitcoin. So, looks like "blockchain"? Anyone else? From the FAQ: https://bitmessage.org/wiki/FAQ https://bitmessage.org/wiki/FAQ > On average it should take 8 minutes from the time you click the send button to the time you receive a response. Whew. Privacy really costs.

meruru 7y ago

>Riot/Mobile explicitly warns and prompts you to opt in if you try to discover contacts by email/phone number. It looks like this on Android This is way better than the behavior of proprietary programs, but I'd much prefer if the program actively discouraged uploading private information. I can deny the permission myself, but there's not much I can do about other people's behavior, and with the way Riot currently works they are going to end up uploading my personal information. A client that isn't even able to access contacts is one of my top wishes for Matrix right now. As soon as that appears I'm going to start recommending it to everyone over miniVector.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

claudius 7y ago

I am confused by the e-mail issue. The OP says that Riot says: > If you don't specify an email address, you won't be able to reset your password. Are you sure? In your response on pg. 4, you say: > Commented [11]: Yup, this is the point of the service -to map email addresses and phone numbers to matrix IDs. Is it possible to specify an e-mail address to be able to reset passwords without making this e-mail address public? Clearly, this should be the default setting if someone enters an e-mail address after the above prompt by Riot.

Arathorn 7y ago
So email addresses are used for two purposes in Matrix: "administrative contact" for an account (for password reset), as per https://matrix.org/docs/spec/client_server/r0.5.0#adding-account-administrative-contact-information https://matrix.org/docs/spec/client_server/r0.5.0#adding-acc..., and for discovering users' mxids by email address (as per https://matrix.org/docs/spec/identity_service/r0.2.0#post-matrix-identity-api-v1-3pid-bind https://matrix.org/docs/spec/identity_service/r0.2.0#post-ma...). At registration, if you specify an email address, Riot does sets it both for password reset and for mxid discovery. You (and the OP) are right that this should be clearer - it boils down to the fact that we need to add UI to remind the user that they're using an identity server (with given terms of use) and to confirm this is what they want. We could also split it into separate actions (one to set it for password reset, and one to use it for discovery), and indeed before Riot this is how it used to be (there was a checkbox in Matrix Console at registration to let the user choose whether to bind their email). This got lost in Riot because of concerns that it made the registration UX too noisy and complicated (especially with custom HS & IS URLs flying around the place), so it currently binds their email by default. I've just filed https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/10054 https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/10054 to track addressing this. You said "making this e-mail address public" in your question - it's worth noting that binding a 3PID does not publish it in a public list; instead, it means it can be used as a key to look up your MXID for users who already know your email address. In terms of the other valid points the analysis raises, I've also filed a bug to track hashing contact details when doing lookups (https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/2130 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/2130, although i could have sworn we had one already). The other two issues (Riot/Web talking to Scalar too much, and the desire to remove notary servers entirely) already have bugs - https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/5846 https://github.com/vector-im/riot-web/issues/5846 and https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/1228 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/1228 respectively).

majewsky 7y ago

> "Riot needs permission to access your address book contacts to find other Matrix users based on their email and phone numbers. Please allow access on the next pop-up to discover address book users reachable from Riot." I know very well that concise wording in UIs is incredibly hard, but this wording is misleading. It makes it sound like Riot will not work unless I allow access to the address book. I'd suggest something like this: > Riot can check your address book to find other Matrix users based on their email and phone numbers. If you agree to sharing your address book for this purpose, please allow access on the next pop-up.

Arathorn 7y ago
Yeah, that's way better - thanks. have pushed the change at https://github.com/vector-im/riot-android/commit/786bf017852fad184bf3b7b2a0e51eb20b6a87b6 https://github.com/vector-im/riot-android/commit/786bf017852...
- dharma1 7y ago
  10 minutes from a hacker news comment to a github commit. Respect
  - masterfooo 7y ago
    That is just a text change, very superficial
- meruru 7y ago
  Much much better. Thanks!
nfoz 7y ago
I definitely agree that your wording change is a big improvement. Why can't Riot "check my address book to find other Matrix users" without sharing it to their server? Could the client make a one-way hash for each contact and send those to the server to compare against hashes of other contacts? So in your wording, it's not clear that B (agree to sharing my whole address book) follows from A (Riot wants to check my address book for a purpose). Actually it's not clear if "agree to sharing your address book" means sharing it with the client app, or sharing it with a remote server that someone else controls.

gloflo 7y ago

> Please allow access on the next pop-up to discover address book users reachable from Riot. Please don't say please to make people perform questionable privacy violations. How about: "If you want Riot to determine which of your contacts also use Matrix and to easily enable you to talk to them via Riot, you can allow Riot to access your contact list. Note: This will upload all your contacts' details, as stored on your phone, including addresses, birthdays, notes, and more if available to matrix.org. Here is the privacy policy." Or something like that, whatever it really does. Disclaimer: I like matrix :)))

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

jeltz 7y ago

Does hashing really provide much extra privacy when looking up phone numbers or email addresses. Especially for phone numbers the entropy is tiny, it is trivial to precompute all hashes for all phone numbers in most countries.

Arathorn 7y ago
it doesn't provide much extra privacy, given the rainbow tables are trivial to compute, as you say, which is why we haven't prioritised this historically. moxie wrote well about this at https://signal.org/blog/contact-discovery/ https://signal.org/blog/contact-discovery/. however, it does provide some defence-in-depth against Identity Server inspecting the email & phone number details in plaintext, so we'll go sort it out as per https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/2130 https://github.com/matrix-org/matrix-doc/issues/2130

pmlnr 7y ago

> "Riot needs permission to access your address book contacts to find other Matrix users based on their email and phone numbers. Please allow access on the next pop-up to discover address book users reachable from Riot." access != upload This is the same wording how Facebook/LinkedIn/etc got our contact list. Also: > a hostile fork What? Matrix is Free Software. There is no such thing as "hostile fork".

eeZah7Ux 7y ago
> What? Matrix is Free Software. There is no such thing as "hostile fork". Of course there is.
jasonzemos 7y ago
It's possible to have a fork where both sides of the fork remain compatible. A hostile fork will lose this property by one or both sides of the fork causing divergence on purpose (generally the incumbent side) to make it difficult for the other side (generally the parasitic side). This is certainly a real phenomenon, regardless of whether the software is free or proprietary.

liftm 7y ago

Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but: * You could fully encrypt push notifications?

Arathorn 7y ago
Push notifications these days don't contain any contents; they just tell the app to wake up and sync and display a local notification - so there's not even really anything to encrypt.

maxidorius 7y ago

We have answered to your claims of "being alarmist", "disproportionate FUD" and that we did not forget to disclose we are working on a fork which is not hostile. https://gist.github.com/maxidorius/5736fd09c9194b7a6dc03b6b8d7220d0#gistcomment-2945336 https://gist.github.com/maxidorius/5736fd09c9194b7a6dc03b6b8...