3 ms·

But the sum of members, sponsors, and even half-hearted supporters of these and similar organizations does not add up to 1.3 billion or so nationals, no? I don'

by z2 7y ago

But the sum of members, sponsors, and even half-hearted supporters of these and similar organizations does not add up to 1.3 billion or so nationals, no? I don't think it's a liberal or conservative stance to practice arithmetic. You can say that some Mainland Chinese are not trustworthy, but you just cannot conclude that most or all have nefarious intent. Insisting that all Chinese immigrants (or is it only nationals now?) are likely CCP agents does seem to fit the definition of paranoia. Acting fully on paranoia of this magnitude will just bring about more extreme thoughts--and not to mention expressions of racism given the ambiguity between what being Chinese means in the west. What exactly is the containment and liberation strategy? A repeat of the US's Chinese Exclusion Act, internment camps, and a return to the good ol' "Better dead than red" days? Every working-age Chinese national I've gotten to know in the US would jump at the chance to get a green card, get citizenship, and get their aging parents over. There's a separate debate to be had there, but my anecdotal experience has shown that most immigrants are motivated by hard work and seeking a better life for them and their family, and not by surreptitious and opportunistic exploitation of their new home. On soft power for those few that try to project it, they don't seem to be doing well as your links readily show controversies and suspicion. If anything we should be more concerned about soft power projection into Africa and the cheap UN votes it buys.

wyuenho 7y ago
Let's only consider Chinese Communist Party members, which is still a deeply Leninist organization. My rough math is 90mil/1.3b ~ 7% chance that any Chinese from the mainland I encounter belong in an organization that has enacted laws that turned the entire population into informants, an army that will literally crush your scull with a tank if you participate in any protests, an organization that thinks shipping millions of Uyghurs to gulags is an education and jobs training program, an organization that thinks exterminating languages and cultures are okay in the 21st century, an organization that is at the helm of a totalitarian police state. While 7% isn't even close to the majority, it's a little higher percentage of democidal, genocidal, dictatorial co-conspirators, or would be co-conspirators than I would have liked. Mind you, this is only considering CCP members. You probably think I'm evoking McCarthyism, no, I'm simply evoking vigilance. In a mature and democratic society like the US, there is a spirit to give everyone a fair chance to succeed, this spirit is embedded into laws that ensure equal opportunities and strengthen civil rights, and I believe this is admirable values that are worth protecting. On the other hand, it is exactly for the protection of these rights and freedoms, mechanism needs to be put in place to prevent their destruction, and they do exist already in the forms of the Constitution, FARA and the various anti-sedition/treason/espionage acts in the US. In a controlocratic police state like the PRC, where all the sticks and carrots steer people away from basic human decency and morality[1] their entire lives, there's no reason to believe a majority of them will suddenly become decent and moral once they leave the border, especially not if many of their expat friends still have ties with the CCP's foreign branches. They are either too scared to do the right thing or worse, still don't know what the right thing is. The good thing is, democratic institutions have all kinds of defense mechanism against behavior against the host's national interests and freedoms, I'm simply suggesting you use them. In the UK, the Tube broadcasts "see it, say it, sort it" every 10 minutes or so to alert passengers to report any suspicious activity, possibly as a defense against terrorism. I believe the US and elsewhere should also practice this when it comes to CCP infiltration operations. As to containment and liberation (the political and foreign affairs circles use the term liberalization) strategy, this Wikipedia article[2] isn't a very good start but it's a start. If you google the term, you'll dig up at least 30 years of articles and papers from publications like Foreign Affairs and the DoD's archives. Also, see TPP and neo-liberalism. The recent anti-Chinese drumbeat has been a long time coming. Anybody who's been paying attention on the ground in Hong Kong since the handover knows the mainlander are only there to encroach and erode "western" ideals and institutions to advance the CCP's interests of staying in power forever. Hong Kong has suffered quite a number of substantial blows in recent years, this extradition bill on the table is the last straw, I really hope other nations don't have to bow to such regime anywhere in their territories. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wang_Yue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wang_Yue [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_containment_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_containment_policy
- dang 7y ago
  Please don't use HN for political or nationalistic battle. When people start importing pre-existing political cases into the threads, with long lists of links and talking points, curiosity has been left far behind. This site exists for curious conversation, not agendas. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - wyuenho 7y ago
    I think I've made some points not often made here on HN, as I find most thread on many similar threads since years ago rather superficial. I was hoping they will be educational.

by z2 7y ago

wyuenho 7y ago

Let's only consider Chinese Communist Party members, which is still a deeply Leninist organization. My rough math is 90mil/1.3b ~ 7% chance that any Chinese from the mainland I encounter belong in an organization that has enacted laws that turned the entire population into informants, an army that will literally crush your scull with a tank if you participate in any protests, an organization that thinks shipping millions of Uyghurs to gulags is an education and jobs training program, an organization that thinks exterminating languages and cultures are okay in the 21st century, an organization that is at the helm of a totalitarian police state. While 7% isn't even close to the majority, it's a little higher percentage of democidal, genocidal, dictatorial co-conspirators, or would be co-conspirators than I would have liked. Mind you, this is only considering CCP members. You probably think I'm evoking McCarthyism, no, I'm simply evoking vigilance. In a mature and democratic society like the US, there is a spirit to give everyone a fair chance to succeed, this spirit is embedded into laws that ensure equal opportunities and strengthen civil rights, and I believe this is admirable values that are worth protecting. On the other hand, it is exactly for the protection of these rights and freedoms, mechanism needs to be put in place to prevent their destruction, and they do exist already in the forms of the Constitution, FARA and the various anti-sedition/treason/espionage acts in the US. In a controlocratic police state like the PRC, where all the sticks and carrots steer people away from basic human decency and morality[1] their entire lives, there's no reason to believe a majority of them will suddenly become decent and moral once they leave the border, especially not if many of their expat friends still have ties with the CCP's foreign branches. They are either too scared to do the right thing or worse, still don't know what the right thing is. The good thing is, democratic institutions have all kinds of defense mechanism against behavior against the host's national interests and freedoms, I'm simply suggesting you use them. In the UK, the Tube broadcasts "see it, say it, sort it" every 10 minutes or so to alert passengers to report any suspicious activity, possibly as a defense against terrorism. I believe the US and elsewhere should also practice this when it comes to CCP infiltration operations. As to containment and liberation (the political and foreign affairs circles use the term liberalization) strategy, this Wikipedia article[2] isn't a very good start but it's a start. If you google the term, you'll dig up at least 30 years of articles and papers from publications like Foreign Affairs and the DoD's archives. Also, see TPP and neo-liberalism. The recent anti-Chinese drumbeat has been a long time coming. Anybody who's been paying attention on the ground in Hong Kong since the handover knows the mainlander are only there to encroach and erode "western" ideals and institutions to advance the CCP's interests of staying in power forever. Hong Kong has suffered quite a number of substantial blows in recent years, this extradition bill on the table is the last straw, I really hope other nations don't have to bow to such regime anywhere in their territories. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wang_Yue https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Wang_Yue [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_containment_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_containment_policy

dang 7y ago
Please don't use HN for political or nationalistic battle. When people start importing pre-existing political cases into the threads, with long lists of links and talking points, curiosity has been left far behind. This site exists for curious conversation, not agendas. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- wyuenho 7y ago
  I think I've made some points not often made here on HN, as I find most thread on many similar threads since years ago rather superficial. I was hoping they will be educational.