10 ms·

> China's system is so complicated and so far from a heavy-handed police state. No. China is not free. I am sorry you are fed up. But I bet millions of victims

> China's system is so complicated and so far from a heavy-handed police state. No. China is not free. I am sorry you are fed up. But I bet millions of victims of Chinese oppression are in much dire condition and wish they could be fed up and not dead or disappeared. Xi Jinping is a dope. The amount of articulation of control China has over the its citizens is chilling. Defending China, Fuck the Chinese govt. I can say that and face zero repercussions, publically. You cannot say that in China and expect to be ok. I hope the Chinese people rise up one day and figure out a better form of governance for themselves.

yorwba 7y ago
I think you misunderstand. China is not a heavy-handed police state not because everyone is perfectly free, but because not everyone is unfree. The police simply isn't equipped to oppress everyone, so it only hits an unlucky minority. It's just that in China minorities can comprise millions of people. So while in the worst case you might be executed and have your organs harvested, in the average case you'll not even be paid attention to. For example, when I lived in China my landlord violated several regulations on minimum unit size and fire safety, forged documents to hide this and probably also didn't pay any taxes on the rent I paid in cash. One day there was a notice by the police posted to the door, announcing that they'd come investigate. Some time later I got a message from my landlord warning me and the other tenants not to open the door. The police never came. I assume he either paid them off with a bribe or they were simply too lazy to follow up on their threat. If China is a police state, then it's one where the police doesn't take their job very seriously.
- badpun 7y ago
  Police state is more concerned with „crime” of subverting the ruling regime, not all crimes in general. See Stazi, with their absolutely vast network of informers - they too didn’t care if you avoided taxes or broke tenant laws.
- kahnpro 7y ago
  Sounds like you completely misunderstand what a police state is. A police state does not require the police to be concerned with upholding the law. In fact there is usually a departure from the rule of law in police states. As the other commenter mentioned, the police in a police state are usually concerned with maintaining order and protecting the power of the state or ruling faction, and policing people's behaviour to this end.
  - yorwba 7y ago
    I mentioned the anecdote because it's the one case I personally experienced where the police actually got active on an issue, and nothing came of it. I know plenty of people whose behavior looks like it'd be policed (censorship circumvention is endemic, discussing events that reflect negatively on the government is common, some openly advocate e.g. for gay rights) but there's no indication the police are even aware of them. I don't deny that e.g. forming an organization directly challenging the CCP's leadership would get you into deep trouble, but most activity below that threshold appears to go unpoliced. Even the currently ongoing student protest at Beijing Normal University's Zhuhai branch doesn't seem to have met any police resistance so far.
- aukust 7y ago
  China is a police state. If people go to the streets like in Honk Kong, they would be shot and driven over by a tank a few times so they can be disfigured and swept down the drain -- like at Tienanmen. The police in China won't concern themselves if the problem or crime they are facing is something that wouldn't be a big deal publicly or would be viewed badly by the people if word got out.
  - yorwba 7y ago
    A week ago I would have thought the same, but these 1000s of students in Zhuhai haven't been shot yet: http://www.epochtimes.com/gb/19/6/11/n11315690.htm http://www.epochtimes.com/gb/19/6/11/n11315690.htm (There doesn't seem to be any English reporting on this, but the videos and images should speak for themselves with the added context that this is a demonstration currently happening in Mainland China to protest plans to shut down the local university and establish a more elite institution on the same campus.)
tepidandroid 7y ago
> Defending China, Fuck the Chinese govt. > I hope the Chinese people rise up one day and figure out a better form of governance for themselves. Besides the immature, flippant impulse to challenge authority that seems quite prevalent in the West, why should the Chinese feel compelled to pursue the path of destruction you're advocating for? The CCP, for all its imperfections, has lifted 850 million illiterate peasants out of extreme poverty in a mere few decades [1]. Their upward mobility, health and education outcomes have arguably not been better in over 150 years. It's an economic miracle never before seen in history. The trade-off was made between an authoritarian but stable and prosperous society vs balkanization and endless wars that pre-mature democracies tend to produce. Hopefully you’ll excuse them if they don’t join in your shallow diatribe. You can insult Xi all day and say "fuck the Chinese govt" all you want but at the end of the day, it's not your opinion that matters. In general, the people of China are very happy with the progress that's being made (particularly true of the rural population who have witnessed in real-time, continuous improvements to their standard of living). One more thing. It would be convenient if the Chinese government were some monolithic, dark and evil entity that you could shake your pitchfork at, but it’s not [2]. It is an extremely complex, dynamic, and heterogenous entity full of internal power struggles, much like every other non-trivial human organization in history. There is evidence hinting at the existence of reformist and hardline members, factions and sub-factions at every part of the ideological spectrum [3][4]. The GP’s assertion that “China's system is so complicated and so far from a heavy-handed police state.” is factually correct. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China [2] http://faculty.arts.ubc.ca/ftrebbi/research/ftx.pdf http://faculty.arts.ubc.ca/ftrebbi/research/ftx.pdf [3] https://www.hoover.org/sites/default/files/research/docs/clm46am-2.pdf https://www.hoover.org/sites/default/files/research/docs/clm... [4] https://www.mironline.ca/factionalism-china-eve-19th-party-congress/ https://www.mironline.ca/factionalism-china-eve-19th-party-c...
- Avamander 7y ago
  > In general, the people of China are very happy with the progress that's being made (particularly true of the rural population who have witnessed in real-time, continuous improvements to their standard of living). "All for the common good." Didn't even realize that movie was a documentary about China. I find it appalling that you find the Chinese government even remotely okay, the Chinese government violates people's basic human rights for just simply being a part of a minority. The assertion that it's not a free country and horrific the worst way possible when you're a minority is absolutely true. Also, FYI, you can rise out of poverty without continuously slaughtering people ;)

yorwba 7y ago

I think you misunderstand. China is not a heavy-handed police state not because everyone is perfectly free, but because not everyone is unfree. The police simply isn't equipped to oppress everyone, so it only hits an unlucky minority. It's just that in China minorities can comprise millions of people. So while in the worst case you might be executed and have your organs harvested, in the average case you'll not even be paid attention to. For example, when I lived in China my landlord violated several regulations on minimum unit size and fire safety, forged documents to hide this and probably also didn't pay any taxes on the rent I paid in cash. One day there was a notice by the police posted to the door, announcing that they'd come investigate. Some time later I got a message from my landlord warning me and the other tenants not to open the door. The police never came. I assume he either paid them off with a bribe or they were simply too lazy to follow up on their threat. If China is a police state, then it's one where the police doesn't take their job very seriously.

badpun 7y ago
Police state is more concerned with „crime” of subverting the ruling regime, not all crimes in general. See Stazi, with their absolutely vast network of informers - they too didn’t care if you avoided taxes or broke tenant laws.
kahnpro 7y ago
Sounds like you completely misunderstand what a police state is. A police state does not require the police to be concerned with upholding the law. In fact there is usually a departure from the rule of law in police states. As the other commenter mentioned, the police in a police state are usually concerned with maintaining order and protecting the power of the state or ruling faction, and policing people's behaviour to this end.
- yorwba 7y ago
  I mentioned the anecdote because it's the one case I personally experienced where the police actually got active on an issue, and nothing came of it. I know plenty of people whose behavior looks like it'd be policed (censorship circumvention is endemic, discussing events that reflect negatively on the government is common, some openly advocate e.g. for gay rights) but there's no indication the police are even aware of them. I don't deny that e.g. forming an organization directly challenging the CCP's leadership would get you into deep trouble, but most activity below that threshold appears to go unpoliced. Even the currently ongoing student protest at Beijing Normal University's Zhuhai branch doesn't seem to have met any police resistance so far.
aukust 7y ago
China is a police state. If people go to the streets like in Honk Kong, they would be shot and driven over by a tank a few times so they can be disfigured and swept down the drain -- like at Tienanmen. The police in China won't concern themselves if the problem or crime they are facing is something that wouldn't be a big deal publicly or would be viewed badly by the people if word got out.
- yorwba 7y ago
  A week ago I would have thought the same, but these 1000s of students in Zhuhai haven't been shot yet: http://www.epochtimes.com/gb/19/6/11/n11315690.htm http://www.epochtimes.com/gb/19/6/11/n11315690.htm (There doesn't seem to be any English reporting on this, but the videos and images should speak for themselves with the added context that this is a demonstration currently happening in Mainland China to protest plans to shut down the local university and establish a more elite institution on the same campus.)

tepidandroid 7y ago

> Defending China, Fuck the Chinese govt. > I hope the Chinese people rise up one day and figure out a better form of governance for themselves. Besides the immature, flippant impulse to challenge authority that seems quite prevalent in the West, why should the Chinese feel compelled to pursue the path of destruction you're advocating for? The CCP, for all its imperfections, has lifted 850 million illiterate peasants out of extreme poverty in a mere few decades [1]. Their upward mobility, health and education outcomes have arguably not been better in over 150 years. It's an economic miracle never before seen in history. The trade-off was made between an authoritarian but stable and prosperous society vs balkanization and endless wars that pre-mature democracies tend to produce. Hopefully you’ll excuse them if they don’t join in your shallow diatribe. You can insult Xi all day and say "fuck the Chinese govt" all you want but at the end of the day, it's not your opinion that matters. In general, the people of China are very happy with the progress that's being made (particularly true of the rural population who have witnessed in real-time, continuous improvements to their standard of living). One more thing. It would be convenient if the Chinese government were some monolithic, dark and evil entity that you could shake your pitchfork at, but it’s not [2]. It is an extremely complex, dynamic, and heterogenous entity full of internal power struggles, much like every other non-trivial human organization in history. There is evidence hinting at the existence of reformist and hardline members, factions and sub-factions at every part of the ideological spectrum [3][4]. The GP’s assertion that “China's system is so complicated and so far from a heavy-handed police state.” is factually correct. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_China [2] http://faculty.arts.ubc.ca/ftrebbi/research/ftx.pdf http://faculty.arts.ubc.ca/ftrebbi/research/ftx.pdf [3] https://www.hoover.org/sites/default/files/research/docs/clm46am-2.pdf https://www.hoover.org/sites/default/files/research/docs/clm... [4] https://www.mironline.ca/factionalism-china-eve-19th-party-congress/ https://www.mironline.ca/factionalism-china-eve-19th-party-c...

Avamander 7y ago
> In general, the people of China are very happy with the progress that's being made (particularly true of the rural population who have witnessed in real-time, continuous improvements to their standard of living). "All for the common good." Didn't even realize that movie was a documentary about China. I find it appalling that you find the Chinese government even remotely okay, the Chinese government violates people's basic human rights for just simply being a part of a minority. The assertion that it's not a free country and horrific the worst way possible when you're a minority is absolutely true. Also, FYI, you can rise out of poverty without continuously slaughtering people ;)