7 ms·

Atheists and Agnostics Also Frequently Believe in the Supernatural, Study Shows

26 points by rendall 7y ago

SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
I wonder, given the rising popularity of atheism, how many of the people described in the study fall under the unthinking atheist, in the same way someone raised by Christians or in Christian peer-groups can easily become Christian without conscience thought? It stands to reason that as it gains in popularity, atheism would appear more like the general population. I feel like the ‘convinced, dogmatic atheists’ is a group that's become the minority.
- User23 7y ago
  There’s an argument to be made that court enforced public atheism violates the establishment clause.
  - darth_skywalker 7y ago
    Perhaps, but it's impossible to judge the merit of said argument since you failed to make it. I don't know what you mean by "court enforced public atheism." The right to express your religious views is protected in the United States by the 1st Amendment. And on the contrary, U.S. currency reads "In God we trust."
  - BackBackBack 7y ago
    Only if you redefine atheism to mean theism, as in "they believe in atheism! Can't you see?"
    - User23 7y ago
      Atheism is a positive belief system. It actively asserts special gnosis of God’s nonexistence which effectively makes it a particularly bare-boned form of Protestantism. Agnosticism on the other hand isn’t a religion, it’s just intellectual humility or maybe just laziness.
      - BackBackBack 7y ago
        See, you’ve redefine it. If you assert “gnosis” then you are not talking about belief you are talking about knowledge. Gnostics claim to know there is a god, Agnostics claim they do not know if there are gods. But I’m an Atheist. Why? Because I do not BELIEVE there are gods. I have not made any claims. I have not asserted anything. I simply find all the arguments in favor of gods lacking. Atheism IS NOT a positive belief system, but simply the rejection of one.
      - woodruffw 7y ago
        > Atheism is a positive belief system. It actively asserts special gnosis of God’s nonexistence which effectively makes it a particularly bare-boned form of Protestantism. Asserting the nonexistence of something is not asserting special knowledge of something's nonexistence. Atheism isn't a Platonic Beard[1]. On a more practical level: if Protestants and atheists don't find their views mutually intelligible, there probably isn't any really meaningful sense in which one is a "bare-boned form" of the other. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato%27s_beard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato%27s_beard
      - satellitec4t 7y ago
        Atheism is just a-theism, not-theism. If you are not a theist ("i believe in a god or gods"), you are an atheist. You can be atheist and agnostic - most atheists are.
      - sklivvz1971 7y ago
        I'm sorry, but that's just incorrect. Atheists are people who assert "I do not believe in God" and not, "I believe there is no God." It can not be otherwise, because the opposite makes no logical sense. Which God would the correct one to "believe against"? There are infinite Gods that one must equally disbelieve. Not believing in Zeus, Jupiter, Odin, Ra, Yahveh, and the flying spaghetti monster does not require any evidence at all, it's merely the default position which any rational person must take. Atheists merely believe in one God less than believers.
        User23 7y ago
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    I believe you're mistaking opting to not show favoritism to a particular theology for repression.
- DougN7 7y ago
  I bet you’re right. I find a lot of people that take a position with just a cursory overview, and that never go deep to see what that position really implies. It’s hard work and takes time.
- rootusrootus 7y ago
  "Dogmatic atheist"? I would laugh, but a Google search suggests that people do believe such a thing exists. Are they just talking about outspoken atheists who are openly critical of religion?
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    I would assume that to be the case - when I think of the term I think of "The Four Horsemen" - Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennet, & Harris.
    - danaliv 7y ago
      Indeed. Christopher Hitchens called himself not just an atheist, but an "anti-theist."
  - Erik816 7y ago
    There is certainly a brand of atheist who is really only the flipside of a fundamentalist. One reads scripture literally in order to find it infallible, the other reads scripture literally in order to find it impossible.
    - rootusrootus 7y ago
      I don't really like that definition too much, it feels a little off. It feels almost like the tolerance/intolerance debate, in a way. But I get it. I choose not to call myself an atheist, since it seems to have connotations beyond the simple definition. If asked for a label, I call myself ignostic. It has the upside of being easily mistaken for agnostic, therefore it sails under the radar when the topic of religion comes up. So I can be accurate without getting into what amounts to a political debate.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - __david__ 7y ago
      I just seems like a misunderstanding of the term "atheist" to apply the word "dogma" to it, or liken it to fundamentalism. There's no authority structure or writings to be dogmatic about…
- deogeo 7y ago
  On the other hand, maybe they don't believe in any god, but do believe in the supernatural - they would still technically qualify as atheists.
  - BackBackBack 7y ago
    You are being downvoted because people have problems separating the two since they've been so tightly coupled for millennia at least in western civilization. But you are right, nothing in "atheism" prohibits someone believe there is an afterlife, or ghosts, or reincarnation, etc. Atheism just means you don't believe in gods; with a little imagination an afterlife can still exist without any overlords.
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    Totally true - If someone felt the evidence wasn't strong enough for a creator, but there was for ghosts, that'd be totally logical. It seems unlikely, but totally possible.
- satellitec4t 7y ago
  > the rising popularity of atheism How can not-a-thing have rising popularity...
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    Same way "What's your favourite beer?" can have an answer of "I don't drink beer."
    - satellitec4t 7y ago
      But that's beer being less popular...
CM30 7y ago
Not too surprising. Nothing necessarily says 'disbelieves in God/gods' means 'is a rationalist/sceptic'. And nowadays, it seems like a growing number of people are simply not believing in the narratives provided by organised religions and churches, while still maintaining beliefs about other supernatural concepts like reincarnation, ghosts, an afterlife, etc. In some sense, it feels like a bit of a pagan resurgence in some parts, with more people being open to the supernatural while still not believing in religion in the traditional sense.
- ThinkingGuy 7y ago
  You also have to take cultural and linguistic differences into account. In my experience, Japanese people tend use terms like "atheist" and "non-religious" less in the sense of a personal system of belief, and more in the sense of "not being a member of a formal, established religious institution." I've had variations of the following conversation with several Japanese people: Q: Are you religious? A: No I don't have any religion. Q: Oh, I see. By the way, what did you do on New Year's Day this year? A: I went to the neighborhood shrine to pray, like I always do!
  - dkarl 7y ago
    Even in among native English speakers the usage is not consistent. I know people who believe in a spirit world where their dead family members hear their prayers, and they do not describe themselves as religious, because they associate religion with a shared dogma and belief in one or more superhuman deities. I guess most people don't describe themselves "religious" unless there is some organized religion that they are able to identify as the source of their beliefs.
    - satellitec4t 7y ago
      Then there are people who say, "I'm not religious -- I have a relationship with God"
zachguo 7y ago
The original paper is better https://research.kent.ac.uk/understandingunbelief/wp-content/uploads/sites/45/2019/05/UUReportRome.pdf https://research.kent.ac.uk/understandingunbelief/wp-content... Looking at the appendix, their sampling methodology has problems. The sample size for China is smaller than that of Japan, and for western countries 60%-75% of survey takers are male.
amanzi 7y ago
I find the blog posts discussing the report more interesting than the report itself. Atheists/agnostics don't believe in gods (i.e. the ones you pray to that control the world and universe), but that doesn't mean they dismiss outright any possible supernatural belief. There are some outspoken atheists that will certainly take this position, but that's not the definition of an atheist. Personally, I'm a non-believer (along with almost half of my country) but I still like the ideas behind some form of an afterlife or reincarnation. It's soothing (and harmless) to think that a deceased loved one's spirit may live on in some other form.
mistermann 7y ago
I'm not sure if this qualifies as the supernatural (it exceeds natural capabilities, imho), but while lots of people no longer have a fundamentalist belief in religion, it seems a fair number of people have in some sense replaced that with a somewhat fundamentalist belief in the capabilities and comprehensiveness of knowledge (versus theories) of science, free markets, human nature, and other things like that. And on a personal basis, a possibly overly confident view of the correctness of their beliefs about the beliefs (and underlying motivations) of other people.
- sprucely 7y ago
  I'm not sure either, but I kind of agree. I think it's the whole us vs them thing. Most people like to feel like they're on the right (correct, superior) side of whatever issue they decide divides them from the others.
lostmsu 7y ago
Maybe we should call ourselves "occams" to be more specific.
karmakaze 7y ago
An interesting case is Buddhism which many would classify as a religion. It's main premise is that the universe works like a clock that runs on karma which isn't so much a judgment but rather a plain mechanism. There are gods but they basically have no interactions with life as we know it. So believes in the existence of gods that have no bearing, meaning no faith is placed in their doings.
IXxXI 7y ago
Years ago they redefined the atheist demographic to contain those believing in supernatural phenomena or a higher power, in order to push the false narrative which says the number of atheists is increasing worldwide. Those who believe in the supernatural, deities or a higher power are falsely considered "atheist" to exaggerate the size of their demographic.

26 points by rendall 7y ago

I wonder, given the rising popularity of atheism, how many of the people described in the study fall under the unthinking atheist, in the same way someone raised by Christians or in Christian peer-groups can easily become Christian without conscience thought? It stands to reason that as it gains in popularity, atheism would appear more like the general population. I feel like the ‘convinced, dogmatic atheists’ is a group that's become the minority.

User23 7y ago
There’s an argument to be made that court enforced public atheism violates the establishment clause.
- darth_skywalker 7y ago
  Perhaps, but it's impossible to judge the merit of said argument since you failed to make it. I don't know what you mean by "court enforced public atheism." The right to express your religious views is protected in the United States by the 1st Amendment. And on the contrary, U.S. currency reads "In God we trust."
- BackBackBack 7y ago
  Only if you redefine atheism to mean theism, as in "they believe in atheism! Can't you see?"
  - User23 7y ago
    Atheism is a positive belief system. It actively asserts special gnosis of God’s nonexistence which effectively makes it a particularly bare-boned form of Protestantism. Agnosticism on the other hand isn’t a religion, it’s just intellectual humility or maybe just laziness.
    - BackBackBack 7y ago
      See, you’ve redefine it. If you assert “gnosis” then you are not talking about belief you are talking about knowledge. Gnostics claim to know there is a god, Agnostics claim they do not know if there are gods. But I’m an Atheist. Why? Because I do not BELIEVE there are gods. I have not made any claims. I have not asserted anything. I simply find all the arguments in favor of gods lacking. Atheism IS NOT a positive belief system, but simply the rejection of one.
    - woodruffw 7y ago
      > Atheism is a positive belief system. It actively asserts special gnosis of God’s nonexistence which effectively makes it a particularly bare-boned form of Protestantism. Asserting the nonexistence of something is not asserting special knowledge of something's nonexistence. Atheism isn't a Platonic Beard[1]. On a more practical level: if Protestants and atheists don't find their views mutually intelligible, there probably isn't any really meaningful sense in which one is a "bare-boned form" of the other. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato%27s_beard https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plato%27s_beard
    - satellitec4t 7y ago
      Atheism is just a-theism, not-theism. If you are not a theist ("i believe in a god or gods"), you are an atheist. You can be atheist and agnostic - most atheists are.
    - sklivvz1971 7y ago
      I'm sorry, but that's just incorrect. Atheists are people who assert "I do not believe in God" and not, "I believe there is no God." It can not be otherwise, because the opposite makes no logical sense. Which God would the correct one to "believe against"? There are infinite Gods that one must equally disbelieve. Not believing in Zeus, Jupiter, Odin, Ra, Yahveh, and the flying spaghetti monster does not require any evidence at all, it's merely the default position which any rational person must take. Atheists merely believe in one God less than believers.
      - User23 7y ago
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  I believe you're mistaking opting to not show favoritism to a particular theology for repression.
DougN7 7y ago
I bet you’re right. I find a lot of people that take a position with just a cursory overview, and that never go deep to see what that position really implies. It’s hard work and takes time.
rootusrootus 7y ago
"Dogmatic atheist"? I would laugh, but a Google search suggests that people do believe such a thing exists. Are they just talking about outspoken atheists who are openly critical of religion?
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  I would assume that to be the case - when I think of the term I think of "The Four Horsemen" - Hitchens, Dawkins, Dennet, & Harris.
  - danaliv 7y ago
    Indeed. Christopher Hitchens called himself not just an atheist, but an "anti-theist."
- Erik816 7y ago
  There is certainly a brand of atheist who is really only the flipside of a fundamentalist. One reads scripture literally in order to find it infallible, the other reads scripture literally in order to find it impossible.
  - rootusrootus 7y ago
    I don't really like that definition too much, it feels a little off. It feels almost like the tolerance/intolerance debate, in a way. But I get it. I choose not to call myself an atheist, since it seems to have connotations beyond the simple definition. If asked for a label, I call myself ignostic. It has the upside of being easily mistaken for agnostic, therefore it sails under the radar when the topic of religion comes up. So I can be accurate without getting into what amounts to a political debate.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - __david__ 7y ago
    I just seems like a misunderstanding of the term "atheist" to apply the word "dogma" to it, or liken it to fundamentalism. There's no authority structure or writings to be dogmatic about…
deogeo 7y ago
On the other hand, maybe they don't believe in any god, but do believe in the supernatural - they would still technically qualify as atheists.
- BackBackBack 7y ago
  You are being downvoted because people have problems separating the two since they've been so tightly coupled for millennia at least in western civilization. But you are right, nothing in "atheism" prohibits someone believe there is an afterlife, or ghosts, or reincarnation, etc. Atheism just means you don't believe in gods; with a little imagination an afterlife can still exist without any overlords.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  Totally true - If someone felt the evidence wasn't strong enough for a creator, but there was for ghosts, that'd be totally logical. It seems unlikely, but totally possible.
satellitec4t 7y ago
> the rising popularity of atheism How can not-a-thing have rising popularity...
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  Same way "What's your favourite beer?" can have an answer of "I don't drink beer."
  - satellitec4t 7y ago
    But that's beer being less popular...

CM30 7y ago

Not too surprising. Nothing necessarily says 'disbelieves in God/gods' means 'is a rationalist/sceptic'. And nowadays, it seems like a growing number of people are simply not believing in the narratives provided by organised religions and churches, while still maintaining beliefs about other supernatural concepts like reincarnation, ghosts, an afterlife, etc. In some sense, it feels like a bit of a pagan resurgence in some parts, with more people being open to the supernatural while still not believing in religion in the traditional sense.

ThinkingGuy 7y ago
You also have to take cultural and linguistic differences into account. In my experience, Japanese people tend use terms like "atheist" and "non-religious" less in the sense of a personal system of belief, and more in the sense of "not being a member of a formal, established religious institution." I've had variations of the following conversation with several Japanese people: Q: Are you religious? A: No I don't have any religion. Q: Oh, I see. By the way, what did you do on New Year's Day this year? A: I went to the neighborhood shrine to pray, like I always do!
- dkarl 7y ago
  Even in among native English speakers the usage is not consistent. I know people who believe in a spirit world where their dead family members hear their prayers, and they do not describe themselves as religious, because they associate religion with a shared dogma and belief in one or more superhuman deities. I guess most people don't describe themselves "religious" unless there is some organized religion that they are able to identify as the source of their beliefs.
  - satellitec4t 7y ago
    Then there are people who say, "I'm not religious -- I have a relationship with God"

zachguo 7y ago

The original paper is better https://research.kent.ac.uk/understandingunbelief/wp-content/uploads/sites/45/2019/05/UUReportRome.pdf https://research.kent.ac.uk/understandingunbelief/wp-content... Looking at the appendix, their sampling methodology has problems. The sample size for China is smaller than that of Japan, and for western countries 60%-75% of survey takers are male.

amanzi 7y ago

I find the blog posts discussing the report more interesting than the report itself. Atheists/agnostics don't believe in gods (i.e. the ones you pray to that control the world and universe), but that doesn't mean they dismiss outright any possible supernatural belief. There are some outspoken atheists that will certainly take this position, but that's not the definition of an atheist. Personally, I'm a non-believer (along with almost half of my country) but I still like the ideas behind some form of an afterlife or reincarnation. It's soothing (and harmless) to think that a deceased loved one's spirit may live on in some other form.

mistermann 7y ago

I'm not sure if this qualifies as the supernatural (it exceeds natural capabilities, imho), but while lots of people no longer have a fundamentalist belief in religion, it seems a fair number of people have in some sense replaced that with a somewhat fundamentalist belief in the capabilities and comprehensiveness of knowledge (versus theories) of science, free markets, human nature, and other things like that. And on a personal basis, a possibly overly confident view of the correctness of their beliefs about the beliefs (and underlying motivations) of other people.

sprucely 7y ago
I'm not sure either, but I kind of agree. I think it's the whole us vs them thing. Most people like to feel like they're on the right (correct, superior) side of whatever issue they decide divides them from the others.

lostmsu 7y ago

Maybe we should call ourselves "occams" to be more specific.

karmakaze 7y ago

An interesting case is Buddhism which many would classify as a religion. It's main premise is that the universe works like a clock that runs on karma which isn't so much a judgment but rather a plain mechanism. There are gods but they basically have no interactions with life as we know it. So believes in the existence of gods that have no bearing, meaning no faith is placed in their doings.

IXxXI 7y ago

Years ago they redefined the atheist demographic to contain those believing in supernatural phenomena or a higher power, in order to push the false narrative which says the number of atheists is increasing worldwide. Those who believe in the supernatural, deities or a higher power are falsely considered "atheist" to exaggerate the size of their demographic.