8 ms·

If anybody responds, tell them that the offer is oversubscribed and that it is no longer available. Wow! A company built to handle other people's money that r

by edw519 16y ago

If anybody responds, tell them that the offer is oversubscribed and that it is no longer available. Wow! A company built to handle other people's money that recommends deception. What's wrong with this picture?

aberman 16y ago
I think you are being a little melodramatic. This is to vet an idea, not a sustainable way to build a business. I even said that it could/should be more of a thought experiment. And besides, I'm not recommending that you maliciously and deleteriously deceive people. pg on naughtiness: "Though the most successful founders are usually good people, they tend to have a piratical gleam in their eye. They're not goody-two-shoes good. Morally they care about getting the big questions right but not about observing proprieties. That's why I'd use the word "naughty" rather than evil. They delight in breaking rules--but not rules that matter. This quality may be redundant, though; it may be implied by imagination."
- edw519 16y ago
  Sorry to say, Rich, that was not the response I expected. AFAIC, there is no gray area here. I have argued (yes, many have disagreed with me) the same for years here. A little background... I have seen more deals than you can imagine ruined because someone lost trust. As simple as that. The salesman fibbing to his wife on the phone in front of the customer. The contractor paying the 3rd party vendor a little extra to get his customer's deal. I even saw someone lose a million dollar deal because he took his customer for a ride in his leased car with the speedometer disconnected. And the reasoning was always the same: "If he could do this little thing to someone else, what will he do with my big deal?" It's not a matter of what is effective. It's a matter of what's right and wrong. For many people (me included, of course), there is no gray area. I realize that jaywalking != murder, but deception in business tactics is always a big deal. When one has little more than your reputation to judge, all data that affects that reputation is fair game. I was disappointed with the original post. Calling deception "a little melodramatic" and citing a pg naughtiness quote as an excuse leaves me more disappointed than ever.
  - elai 16y ago
    So if they said that "We are waiting for more customer response before offering this service" would that be fine?
  - aberman 16y ago
    If I had more time, I'd go through all your previous HN comments disparaging WePay for different reasons. Somehow I doubt your motivation for doing so is a sterling commitment to morality. If it was, I doubt you would introduce your criticism with: "A company built to handle other people's money...", and instead, just focus your criticism on the point you are attacking.
    - edw519 16y ago
      No need for you to waste any time. Here they are: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1959512 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1959512 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1959304 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1959304 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1959114 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1959114 The first was meant as a compliment. I think you have a great idea and appear to be doing a great job with that idea. I have recommended you to quite a few people as the perfect solution to their problem. I wish you nothing but great success. The other two were in response to a rant about airline customer service on your corporate blog. I thought this was a bad idea and tried my best to explain why. I think the main reason I responded like that was because I saw a young company I cared about potentially making a mistake and I wanted to point it out. To be honest, I didn't ever remember the 3 previous comments when I responded to this thread. I would have never put 2 & 2 together if you hadn't pointed it out. Thinking that someone giving you feedback because they "have it in for you" can be a dangerous assumption. I realize that hn is much bigger than it once was, but it's still a great sandbox to try stuff out and fix problems before the rest of the world finds out. Thus the feedback. Somehow I doubt your motivation for doing so is a sterling commitment to morality. Do you respond to others who provide you feedback like this? I sure hope not.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
sdizdar 16y ago
COLD email 20 of them and offer to pay THEM to use your product if they are willing to offer some feedback. If anybody responds, tell them that the offer is oversubscribed and that it is no longer available. I wonder what is wrong with saying just "Hi, I would like to get feedback about project X.". Would that way have the same affect? I'm asking that just becasue I try to follow an old proverb (not sure if translation to English is correct): if you have a smallest doubt about whether to lie or not, don't lie. (no, I'm not good with the above rule, but at least helped me while dating and now in marriage)
EGreg 16y ago
I somehow knew this would touch off a firestorm. Come on, lots of people measure people's interest in ways where they go to some page or do an action and nothing is there. True, after that, those people probably won't trust you unless they have a good reason to. But in the end of the day, you didn't really harm them and there are many more people. Look I'm not saying it's not lying. I'm saying that there are worse things in the world than sending 20 people to a page to gage their interest.
richcollins 16y ago
In addition, I don't think that it is as effective as telling them that it isn't ready yet and asking them for an email to let them know when it comes out. If they risk providing their email for a product that isn't even ready yet, it shows stronger interest than for a product that they think that they will be able to use right away.
Qz 16y ago
If these recommendations are too extreme, treat them as a thought experiment. Just don’t lie to yourself.
rdl 16y ago
I think it's especially telling that he defaults to deception in a case where the more honest, transparent, and honorable action is both obvious and more personally beneficial to everyone involved. Using advertising and pre sales contacts to determine demand and design a product is quite reasonable (and standard; the innovation is that self-service AdWords makes it a command-line process vs. a formal effort), but the respondents are your first, best, and potentially most loyal customers, so screwing them even a little right off the bat is bad for a lot of reasons. When the game theoretic amoral behavior and the "conventional, moral" behavior tend to converge, it's probably the correct choice.

by edw519 16y ago

aberman 16y ago

I think you are being a little melodramatic. This is to vet an idea, not a sustainable way to build a business. I even said that it could/should be more of a thought experiment. And besides, I'm not recommending that you maliciously and deleteriously deceive people. pg on naughtiness: "Though the most successful founders are usually good people, they tend to have a piratical gleam in their eye. They're not goody-two-shoes good. Morally they care about getting the big questions right but not about observing proprieties. That's why I'd use the word "naughty" rather than evil. They delight in breaking rules--but not rules that matter. This quality may be redundant, though; it may be implied by imagination."

edw519 16y ago
Sorry to say, Rich, that was not the response I expected. AFAIC, there is no gray area here. I have argued (yes, many have disagreed with me) the same for years here. A little background... I have seen more deals than you can imagine ruined because someone lost trust. As simple as that. The salesman fibbing to his wife on the phone in front of the customer. The contractor paying the 3rd party vendor a little extra to get his customer's deal. I even saw someone lose a million dollar deal because he took his customer for a ride in his leased car with the speedometer disconnected. And the reasoning was always the same: "If he could do this little thing to someone else, what will he do with my big deal?" It's not a matter of what is effective. It's a matter of what's right and wrong. For many people (me included, of course), there is no gray area. I realize that jaywalking != murder, but deception in business tactics is always a big deal. When one has little more than your reputation to judge, all data that affects that reputation is fair game. I was disappointed with the original post. Calling deception "a little melodramatic" and citing a pg naughtiness quote as an excuse leaves me more disappointed than ever.
- elai 16y ago
  So if they said that "We are waiting for more customer response before offering this service" would that be fine?
- aberman 16y ago
  If I had more time, I'd go through all your previous HN comments disparaging WePay for different reasons. Somehow I doubt your motivation for doing so is a sterling commitment to morality. If it was, I doubt you would introduce your criticism with: "A company built to handle other people's money...", and instead, just focus your criticism on the point you are attacking.
  - edw519 16y ago
    No need for you to waste any time. Here they are: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1959512 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1959512 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1959304 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1959304 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1959114 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1959114 The first was meant as a compliment. I think you have a great idea and appear to be doing a great job with that idea. I have recommended you to quite a few people as the perfect solution to their problem. I wish you nothing but great success. The other two were in response to a rant about airline customer service on your corporate blog. I thought this was a bad idea and tried my best to explain why. I think the main reason I responded like that was because I saw a young company I cared about potentially making a mistake and I wanted to point it out. To be honest, I didn't ever remember the 3 previous comments when I responded to this thread. I would have never put 2 & 2 together if you hadn't pointed it out. Thinking that someone giving you feedback because they "have it in for you" can be a dangerous assumption. I realize that hn is much bigger than it once was, but it's still a great sandbox to try stuff out and fix problems before the rest of the world finds out. Thus the feedback. Somehow I doubt your motivation for doing so is a sterling commitment to morality. Do you respond to others who provide you feedback like this? I sure hope not.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]

sdizdar 16y ago

COLD email 20 of them and offer to pay THEM to use your product if they are willing to offer some feedback. If anybody responds, tell them that the offer is oversubscribed and that it is no longer available. I wonder what is wrong with saying just "Hi, I would like to get feedback about project X.". Would that way have the same affect? I'm asking that just becasue I try to follow an old proverb (not sure if translation to English is correct): if you have a smallest doubt about whether to lie or not, don't lie. (no, I'm not good with the above rule, but at least helped me while dating and now in marriage)

EGreg 16y ago

I somehow knew this would touch off a firestorm. Come on, lots of people measure people's interest in ways where they go to some page or do an action and nothing is there. True, after that, those people probably won't trust you unless they have a good reason to. But in the end of the day, you didn't really harm them and there are many more people. Look I'm not saying it's not lying. I'm saying that there are worse things in the world than sending 20 people to a page to gage their interest.

richcollins 16y ago

In addition, I don't think that it is as effective as telling them that it isn't ready yet and asking them for an email to let them know when it comes out. If they risk providing their email for a product that isn't even ready yet, it shows stronger interest than for a product that they think that they will be able to use right away.

Qz 16y ago

If these recommendations are too extreme, treat them as a thought experiment. Just don’t lie to yourself.

rdl 16y ago

I think it's especially telling that he defaults to deception in a case where the more honest, transparent, and honorable action is both obvious and more personally beneficial to everyone involved. Using advertising and pre sales contacts to determine demand and design a product is quite reasonable (and standard; the innovation is that self-service AdWords makes it a command-line process vs. a formal effort), but the respondents are your first, best, and potentially most loyal customers, so screwing them even a little right off the bat is bad for a lot of reasons. When the game theoretic amoral behavior and the "conventional, moral" behavior tend to converge, it's probably the correct choice.