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"there are quite a few things people in Eastern Europe miss from the Soviet days." The people who were lucky not to end up in jail, Gulags, banned from good jo

"there are quite a few things people in Eastern Europe miss from the Soviet days." The people who were lucky not to end up in jail, Gulags, banned from good jobs or made to work in the coal mines, you mean. Who were lucky to be allowed to go to university and take on an interesting job. Survivor bias might play a huge part here. Of course there were people who benefited from the system. You mention "quality education in the trades and higher professions for example." - what percentage of the population got to enjoy that? Community - as long as you didn't dissent, I guess? What if you didn't approve of everything the government did? Then community turned into people spying to you and ratting you out to the secret police? Childcare and healthcare are available in non-communist countries, too. Besides, childcare meant being forced to give up your children at three months, so that you could go back to working and doing your part for the common good. "the USSR did some things right." Can you give some specific examples?

ionised 7y ago
> You mention "quality education in the trades and higher professions for example." - what percentage of the population got to enjoy that? All the examples I gave were freely available even to the regular workers. I've spent enough time in Poland and Ukraine to know I'm getting this information from people who actually lived through this. Primary sources. Most wouldn't go to university, sure, but that is also true of the west. Not everybody goes to university, some become labourers or take up a trade. Free child care, free healthcare, free education. Even free psychiatric help (something we sorely need in he west). The quality of this varied greatly sure, but it was freely available. These are basic socialist principles that are practices even by enlightened western nations today (just not the US, obviously). These were pillars the USSR was built on. The fact that it had colossal failings elsewhere does not detract from this. > Can you give some specific examples? I already did. I'm not denying the system was highly corrupt and many people suffered, but you are denying even basic truisms that you could confirm yourself if you got out of your bubble or read some history books. The things I am saying are not excusing the horrible things the system engaged in. It would be interesting if you held your own country to the same standards as well. It wouldn't come out as clean and shiny as you think. You are arguing from the perspective of someone who thinks there was literally NOTHING positive about the system at all. You are deliberately ignoring what I am saying and your responses in this thread have been little more than "I disagree because the USSR was bad". This is just pure fundamentalism and I'm not going to continue arguing with an ideologue. It's wasted effort. I'm done.
- bubblewrap 7y ago
  I know people were not just allowed to go to university. A friend of mine crossed into West Germany in 1989. He wouldn't have been allowed to study in East Germany. He then studied Mathematics in West Germany. A friend from Poland told me how everything had seemed hopeless and she had no real perspective for her future life, until "the miracle happened" (her words) and borders and restrictions were lifted. I think the friends you have may have been from very privileged circles in those countries, if their memories are so positive. Childcare, I also mentioned the background: women were supposed to contribute their share of work for the common good. Meanwhile they had to give their kids to the childcare to start with their early indoctrination. Health Care: sure, it is a good idea. But I don't think the people who were sent to Siberia or the coal mines received good health care. So at the end of the day, it wasn't really free for everybody, just for the people who sucked up to the system. Which is also a price. I think it may be you who is the ideologue here.

ionised 7y ago

> You mention "quality education in the trades and higher professions for example." - what percentage of the population got to enjoy that? All the examples I gave were freely available even to the regular workers. I've spent enough time in Poland and Ukraine to know I'm getting this information from people who actually lived through this. Primary sources. Most wouldn't go to university, sure, but that is also true of the west. Not everybody goes to university, some become labourers or take up a trade. Free child care, free healthcare, free education. Even free psychiatric help (something we sorely need in he west). The quality of this varied greatly sure, but it was freely available. These are basic socialist principles that are practices even by enlightened western nations today (just not the US, obviously). These were pillars the USSR was built on. The fact that it had colossal failings elsewhere does not detract from this. > Can you give some specific examples? I already did. I'm not denying the system was highly corrupt and many people suffered, but you are denying even basic truisms that you could confirm yourself if you got out of your bubble or read some history books. The things I am saying are not excusing the horrible things the system engaged in. It would be interesting if you held your own country to the same standards as well. It wouldn't come out as clean and shiny as you think. You are arguing from the perspective of someone who thinks there was literally NOTHING positive about the system at all. You are deliberately ignoring what I am saying and your responses in this thread have been little more than "I disagree because the USSR was bad". This is just pure fundamentalism and I'm not going to continue arguing with an ideologue. It's wasted effort. I'm done.

bubblewrap 7y ago
I know people were not just allowed to go to university. A friend of mine crossed into West Germany in 1989. He wouldn't have been allowed to study in East Germany. He then studied Mathematics in West Germany. A friend from Poland told me how everything had seemed hopeless and she had no real perspective for her future life, until "the miracle happened" (her words) and borders and restrictions were lifted. I think the friends you have may have been from very privileged circles in those countries, if their memories are so positive. Childcare, I also mentioned the background: women were supposed to contribute their share of work for the common good. Meanwhile they had to give their kids to the childcare to start with their early indoctrination. Health Care: sure, it is a good idea. But I don't think the people who were sent to Siberia or the coal mines received good health care. So at the end of the day, it wasn't really free for everybody, just for the people who sucked up to the system. Which is also a price. I think it may be you who is the ideologue here.