8 ms·

“It’s just standard whatever” is really fun when you want a change and you have all the leverage. It’s hilarious to watch the tune change when you say you just

“It’s just standard whatever” is really fun when you want a change and you have all the leverage. It’s hilarious to watch the tune change when you say you just won’t sign in that case. Alas, I’ve only been in this position once.

ryandrake 7y ago
In employee-employer relationships, the employer typically has all the power, so if you refuse to sign, you will likely be terminated. This comes up all the time with signing NDAs, copyright assignment policies, anti-moonlighting policies... you have to sign it or you’re gone. I’ve tried the cute “strike out the clauses you don’t like” trick and in every case, Legal got back to me in a few days with a stern “Sign it unmodified or GTFO.” I also remember a company that I worked for where every week, you had to sign a paper showing you worked 8 hours each day for a total of 40 hours, regardless of whether you actually worked more or less. This was for a salaried position with no overtime so it didn’t really affect my compensation. I tried correcting the numbers and HR said you can’t change them. I pointed out that I’d be lying if I signed it unmodified and the response was I’d be terminated if I didn’t sign. So, of course I signed it but it seemed like such a pointless exercise.
- selimthegrim 7y ago
  Yup, this happened to me too (signing off timesheets for an exempt position)
- krebby 7y ago
  As a counterpoint to this, a few years back I was freelancing for a fairly well known startup. My first day on site their lawyer gave me a contract with a clause saying something to the effect of if the company found my work unsatisfactory I would redo it free of charge. I brought this up to the lawyer and he immediately agreed he wouldn't sign something similar (also that he was surprised that I actually read the contract since it was otherwise fairly standard). He struck it out and we both initialed. No issues came up but I've since felt vindicated in doing a close reading of anything more important than an EULA.
  - ghaff 7y ago
    Arguably that's a bit different though. If I hire a contractor to do a job (whether construction or software) for a fixed price and they do a sub-standard job, it's really not unreasonable to expect that they'll correct deficiencies prior to final payment. (If I'm paying them hourly and there are no other conditions in the contract, then it's probably on me though.)
    - sbov 7y ago
      Finding something "unsatisfactory" is an incredibly vague term and does not necessarily mean someone did a substandard job.
      - AstralStorm 7y ago
        This is why civil suits exist. Generally such attempts at exploiting clauses made in bad will get settled out of court.
    - Itaxpica 7y ago
      Usually contracts with a do-over clause like that also include very specific, objective measures of what makes a job sub-standard (like not being able to pass certain engineering inspections, in the case of construction jobs). A contract that just says "I can make you re-do this work if I'm subjectively unhappy" is insane.
      - ghaff 7y ago
        Things tend to be more formalized in a business context but my experience with contractors, etc. at home is that it's often pretty loose, at least for relatively small things.
        jsty 7y ago
        There's quite a big difference between voluntarily making a few tweaks to something to keep your client happy, and giving them a legally enforceable right to unlimited and uncompensated re-work until they're satisfied.
- kmonsen 7y ago
  Where I work this is a thing. We are required to report to the government how many hours we work and I think by law are entitled to overtime. Instead it gets reported as 40 his each week when that is obviously not true. I'm ok with my compensation, and have no real complaints, except the lying to authorities pay. This is in a FAANG company, but a European subsidiary.
  - behringer 7y ago
    So then report them. If you don't, then you're lying as much as they are.
    - kmonsen 7y ago
      I agree, but it doesn't seem worth risking my job over. I know, pretty weak.
      - rhino369 7y ago
        Anonymous tip to the authorities might work.
      - eweise 7y ago
        Keep another accurate record of your hours and then when you are ready to quit, sue them for the overtime.
        cwkoss 7y ago
        I have a friend who did this - it works. I doubt they'll have to sue, probably a simple demand letter will be sufficient.
        papln 7y ago
        Switzerland does not allow this. http://www.webster.ch/humanresources/overtimepolicy.html http://www.webster.ch/humanresources/overtimepolicy.html > All extra hours and overtime [...] must be announced to HR department before the 10th of the following month > Any hours that are not announced respecting this time frame will be excluded from any form of compensation.
- stickfigure 7y ago
  This can vary quite a bit employer to employer. As a contractor I've always successfully crossed out indemnification clauses, noncompete clauses (except while the contract is in progress), and anything that lays claim to my time or effort outside of work. But I've also been willing to walk.
  - ehnto 7y ago
    You have more leverage as a contractor I think, the position is different to an employee. Clauses like noncompetes and IP claims outside of the contract are a pretty hard sell for a contractor, as it limits your ability to work after the job is done and as such it's going to be hard to hire a contractor with those kinds terms. I imagine clauses like that are designed to keep employees around for as long as possible, not really an aim if you're hiring a contractor.
    - ellard 7y ago
      Depends on the goals of the contractor. They might concede to some crazy agreements to be able to list a big name company or a high profile project on their work history to get higher paying work in the future.
- LurkersWillLurk 7y ago
  I'd speculate that the certification of hours might be an effort to deny unemployment benefits. The company can fire you for cause and claim that you lied about your hours. If everyone breaks some minor rule all of the time, then prosecution and punishment becomes entirely discretionary, used only when furthering the goals of the authority. I'm not sure if this theory would actually prevail in an unemployment hearing - it varies significantly by state - but the business loses nothing by trying.
  - yesbabyyes 7y ago
    The business stands to lose something by trying this: when I learn that they knowingly entrap their own employees in this manner, I will refuse to work with them. I'm sure I'm not alone. Given the cluelessness of many companies' recruitment, they may very well not realize this, but they will in aggregate lose out on some portion of viable talent.
  - naravara 7y ago
    If a terminated employee can prove the sanctions are being applied arbitrarily that's totally grounds for wrongful termination. But who knows, the court system is so in the pocket of employers in stuff like this and it's so expensive to litigate in the first place it never really happens unless you've got a huge organization with deep pockets.
- wnevets 7y ago
  > I pointed out that I’d be lying if I signed it unmodified and the response was I’d be terminated if I didn’t sign Why isn't this a good reason to file a wrongful termination lawsuit?
- toast0 7y ago
  > In employee-employer relationships, the employer typically has all the power, so if you refuse to sign, you will likely be terminated. Almost always, it won't hurt to ask. I've gotten approval to cross out some of the clauses when it didn't matter to the employer. Ex: ownership of work clause when I wasn't in a position providing work; but they wouldn't let me cross out asymmetric notice clauses. I also neglected to sign an NDA for about two years once; I was asked to sign and scan prior to employment, but had some equipment issues and was told we'd do it on the first day, but it was forgotten, until investors wanted to see that everyone had an NDA prior to the next round of investment.
- ehnto 7y ago
  I know this probably limits my career potential, but I consistently choose smaller companies and enjoy avoiding this kind of thing. There are software "mom and pop" companies all over the place, itching to find a good hire. I sign exactly one piece of paper, my employment contract, and they've always been good about negotiating good terms that allow me to keep my side projects and things of that nature. I think I would sooner change career than move into a corporate sized company, no matter how "startup" the culture is.
  - goostavos 7y ago
    I've had mixed results going this approach early in my career. At small companies, you can find some _shockingly_ huge egos. "Tiny kings, in tiny kingdoms" as they say. The worst one was where during the interview, the interviewer specifically warned about the dynamics of the place: "we serve at the pleasure." And indeed we did. The owner expected bizarre rigid behaviors. For one, everybody clocked in/out (a question that didn't occur to me to even ask about), and if you clocked in >5 minutes after when you were supposed to start, you had to go to HR and sign a document explaining why. This was a development gig. We also had to watch cartoons made by the owners wife. Absolutely bizarre place. I made it about 6mo before getting the hell outta there. The other notable "small shop" experience was when I stopped getting paid on time and the company credit card started getting declined. MegaCorp1 is nice in the way that the others were not.
    - fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
      Were the cartoons work related?
- jlj 7y ago
  I once accepted an offer and the next day I put in my 2 week notice at my new job, and later the same day I found out from a press release that the my new employer was being acquired. A year or so into the new job, the CEO emailed everyone in the company a restrictive NDA, non-compete, non-solicitation contract and told everyone to sign it. It included language about theft of company forms or documents among other things. I looked at the metadata of the contract doc and the "company" tag was the CEO's previous employer. Which told me that the CEO "stole" the doc from his previous company, and was asking everyone to sign something saying they wouldn't do the same. Because of that I decided not to sign it. Several other colleagues refused it too. No one was terminated, but there was a large staff exodus shortly after who were solicited by another former employee. I stayed on another 6 months to finish a project but left after that to join my former coworkers. I would have been open to signing if I was compensated for it, but that option wasn't on the table, and I wasn't willing to restrict my future ability to find work with no benefit to me. Lesson learned: Reusing legal forms from old companies can cost a lot more than a proper lawyer review would have cost. Don't take shortcuts when signing OR asking people to sign a legal document.
- StevePerkins 7y ago
  Not saying this is right or proper... but if you are in the U.S. then this was almost certainly about corporate tax reporting. Your salary may or may not be deductible from the company's business tax, depending on whether your work is classified as an "operational" or "capital" expense. Different companies are more or less zealous in how they collect documentation for these tax deductions. I've worked for companies where management just "handles it", and it's invisible to employees. I've worked for companies that not only make salaried employees log hours, but also do separate them by project code (with some codes being "operational" and other "capital").
- tracker1 7y ago
  I've rarely had any pushback over clarification or refusing to sign as-is. A lot of the time a strike-through on a portion of a contract is sufficient. My bigger issue is electronic signing against versions that don't have the option of striking a line or two. My biggest concerns are outside contributions and IP. Personally, I don't believe in Software Patents for the most part, and will not give up rights for stuff I build on my own time.
- thechao 7y ago
  I was in exactly this situation at UTMB Galveston around 2002ish. I ended up in a room with the manager who decided to implement the policy & one of the hospital's lawyers. The lawyer was patiently explaining to the incoherently-sobbing manager that: 1. UTMB Galveston was indemnified from her mistakes by her employment contract; 2. She owed me something like 60000$ in unpaid compensation, and that the State of Texas would probably penalize her another 250-500k$; and, 3. A cursory investigation showed that there was probably another several million in fines & compensation, outstanding in the complaint, that she would have to pay. We "settled" with an official apology, an official write up in her permanent record, & a change in policy. (She quietly "left" shortly thereafter.) If you have to track your hours to be paid (or not terminated), then you are by definition not a salaried employee: you are hourly. The way the FLSA works is it asks how the employer treats the employee — if you're treated like you're salaried, then you're salaried. Legally, there's no notion of 'salary' and 'hourly' outside of this. (Ignoring all the real complexities of the law.) Requiring an hourly worker to falsify statements of hourly work is a serious crime. The repercussions are pretty crazy.
  - papln 7y ago
    > 1. UTMB Galveston was indemnified from her mistakes by her employment contract; For a low-level manager? That's insane and I'd be shocked to see that hold up in court. > Requiring an hourly worker to falsify statements of hourly work is a serious crime. Maybe, but it's also one of the most common non-punished crimes in the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_theft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_theft
    - reaperducer 7y ago
      For a low-level manager? That's insane and I'd be shocked to see that hold up in court. I wouldn't. In the United States, you don't screw with labor law. Pay your employees late a couple of times, and if the right bureaucrat finds out, your company is gone.
  - alasdair_ 7y ago
    >If you have to track your hours to be paid (or not terminated), then you are by definition not a salaried employee: you are hourly. Every law firm I know of has their associates keep track of hours and all are on salary. I assume the lawyers know what they are doing.
pjc50 7y ago
I've once been in that situation where the company tried to introduce a contract rewrite with the standard lack of clarity over whether it applied to everything, including outside work (e.g. open source contributions). There were enough open source developers in the company that this was a big problem. So we all just refused to sign the contract change. The situation stalled for a few months, and they eventually backed down and wrote in a clarification. This was the UK, so we actually had rights and couldn't just be arbitrarily sacked, and everyone was aware that pursuing individuals over this would lead to a mass exodus and the destruction of the company.
- C1sc0cat 7y ago
  Not signing a new contract in the UK is not as protected as you think here. Unless TUPE applies where there are protections
  - pjc50 7y ago
    Not protected in the formal sense, but the old one still applied with its month's notice in both directions. Really the key factor was the difficulty in replacing developers.
- CapitalistCartr 7y ago
  That's the effect of unionizing, that is, sticking together.
  - TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
    Collective bargaining, indeed! A union is merely this formalised.
  - alasdair_ 7y ago
    In the UK, you can't legally get fired without cause, regardless of being in a union or not. (You can be made redundant but shrug).
    - 7y ago
redorb 7y ago
Had to quit the company I worked at for 4-5 years after the owner died his wife took over - and tried to force non competes that were forever and transferable if the business was sold etc.. The contract was so broad there was no way it was valid. The kicker was she was withholding my standard'ish larg'ish bonus. I just walked and finally she came around - took years for us to mend our relationship.
- xiii1408 7y ago
  Shit! Did you get the bonus in the end?
  - redorb 7y ago
    Oh yeah on day 3, she said come in and we'll talk... Talked for 2 hours and she was still stuck on the contract. Finally I told her 'I feel like that check your holding is already mine' - aka your on the verge of theft.. I immediately spent the next month negotiating the bonus into the base pay. Took a few years to regain trust and now I'm at a glass ceiling (which I won't complain about but feel fortunate about)
- rolltiide 7y ago
  I actually don't mind signing unenforceable contracts. You don't have to say anything, life can be like a game of poker. If your perception of reality is correct, you gain outsize influence, if it is incorrect (or more specifically "can't gain consensus") then you are poor or are imprisoned or killed. Do you gain a benefit by informing someone else about their perception of reality? I primarily try to be rich enough to exercise my perception of reality in appeals court, because thats the only place it really matters.
  - alasdair_ 7y ago
    I do the same thing. It's not even necessary to be especially rich in most cases, so long as you took the time to read the relevant statutes and case law in advance. An hour on a search engine is often enough.
  - 7y ago

ryandrake 7y ago

In employee-employer relationships, the employer typically has all the power, so if you refuse to sign, you will likely be terminated. This comes up all the time with signing NDAs, copyright assignment policies, anti-moonlighting policies... you have to sign it or you’re gone. I’ve tried the cute “strike out the clauses you don’t like” trick and in every case, Legal got back to me in a few days with a stern “Sign it unmodified or GTFO.” I also remember a company that I worked for where every week, you had to sign a paper showing you worked 8 hours each day for a total of 40 hours, regardless of whether you actually worked more or less. This was for a salaried position with no overtime so it didn’t really affect my compensation. I tried correcting the numbers and HR said you can’t change them. I pointed out that I’d be lying if I signed it unmodified and the response was I’d be terminated if I didn’t sign. So, of course I signed it but it seemed like such a pointless exercise.

selimthegrim 7y ago
Yup, this happened to me too (signing off timesheets for an exempt position)
krebby 7y ago
As a counterpoint to this, a few years back I was freelancing for a fairly well known startup. My first day on site their lawyer gave me a contract with a clause saying something to the effect of if the company found my work unsatisfactory I would redo it free of charge. I brought this up to the lawyer and he immediately agreed he wouldn't sign something similar (also that he was surprised that I actually read the contract since it was otherwise fairly standard). He struck it out and we both initialed. No issues came up but I've since felt vindicated in doing a close reading of anything more important than an EULA.
- ghaff 7y ago
  Arguably that's a bit different though. If I hire a contractor to do a job (whether construction or software) for a fixed price and they do a sub-standard job, it's really not unreasonable to expect that they'll correct deficiencies prior to final payment. (If I'm paying them hourly and there are no other conditions in the contract, then it's probably on me though.)
  - sbov 7y ago
    Finding something "unsatisfactory" is an incredibly vague term and does not necessarily mean someone did a substandard job.
    - AstralStorm 7y ago
      This is why civil suits exist. Generally such attempts at exploiting clauses made in bad will get settled out of court.
  - Itaxpica 7y ago
    Usually contracts with a do-over clause like that also include very specific, objective measures of what makes a job sub-standard (like not being able to pass certain engineering inspections, in the case of construction jobs). A contract that just says "I can make you re-do this work if I'm subjectively unhappy" is insane.
    - ghaff 7y ago
      Things tend to be more formalized in a business context but my experience with contractors, etc. at home is that it's often pretty loose, at least for relatively small things.
      - jsty 7y ago
        There's quite a big difference between voluntarily making a few tweaks to something to keep your client happy, and giving them a legally enforceable right to unlimited and uncompensated re-work until they're satisfied.
kmonsen 7y ago
Where I work this is a thing. We are required to report to the government how many hours we work and I think by law are entitled to overtime. Instead it gets reported as 40 his each week when that is obviously not true. I'm ok with my compensation, and have no real complaints, except the lying to authorities pay. This is in a FAANG company, but a European subsidiary.
- behringer 7y ago
  So then report them. If you don't, then you're lying as much as they are.
  - kmonsen 7y ago
    I agree, but it doesn't seem worth risking my job over. I know, pretty weak.
    - rhino369 7y ago
      Anonymous tip to the authorities might work.
    - eweise 7y ago
      Keep another accurate record of your hours and then when you are ready to quit, sue them for the overtime.
      - cwkoss 7y ago
        I have a friend who did this - it works. I doubt they'll have to sue, probably a simple demand letter will be sufficient.
      - papln 7y ago
        Switzerland does not allow this. http://www.webster.ch/humanresources/overtimepolicy.html http://www.webster.ch/humanresources/overtimepolicy.html > All extra hours and overtime [...] must be announced to HR department before the 10th of the following month > Any hours that are not announced respecting this time frame will be excluded from any form of compensation.
stickfigure 7y ago
This can vary quite a bit employer to employer. As a contractor I've always successfully crossed out indemnification clauses, noncompete clauses (except while the contract is in progress), and anything that lays claim to my time or effort outside of work. But I've also been willing to walk.
- ehnto 7y ago
  You have more leverage as a contractor I think, the position is different to an employee. Clauses like noncompetes and IP claims outside of the contract are a pretty hard sell for a contractor, as it limits your ability to work after the job is done and as such it's going to be hard to hire a contractor with those kinds terms. I imagine clauses like that are designed to keep employees around for as long as possible, not really an aim if you're hiring a contractor.
  - ellard 7y ago
    Depends on the goals of the contractor. They might concede to some crazy agreements to be able to list a big name company or a high profile project on their work history to get higher paying work in the future.
LurkersWillLurk 7y ago
I'd speculate that the certification of hours might be an effort to deny unemployment benefits. The company can fire you for cause and claim that you lied about your hours. If everyone breaks some minor rule all of the time, then prosecution and punishment becomes entirely discretionary, used only when furthering the goals of the authority. I'm not sure if this theory would actually prevail in an unemployment hearing - it varies significantly by state - but the business loses nothing by trying.
- yesbabyyes 7y ago
  The business stands to lose something by trying this: when I learn that they knowingly entrap their own employees in this manner, I will refuse to work with them. I'm sure I'm not alone. Given the cluelessness of many companies' recruitment, they may very well not realize this, but they will in aggregate lose out on some portion of viable talent.
- naravara 7y ago
  If a terminated employee can prove the sanctions are being applied arbitrarily that's totally grounds for wrongful termination. But who knows, the court system is so in the pocket of employers in stuff like this and it's so expensive to litigate in the first place it never really happens unless you've got a huge organization with deep pockets.
wnevets 7y ago
> I pointed out that I’d be lying if I signed it unmodified and the response was I’d be terminated if I didn’t sign Why isn't this a good reason to file a wrongful termination lawsuit?
toast0 7y ago
> In employee-employer relationships, the employer typically has all the power, so if you refuse to sign, you will likely be terminated. Almost always, it won't hurt to ask. I've gotten approval to cross out some of the clauses when it didn't matter to the employer. Ex: ownership of work clause when I wasn't in a position providing work; but they wouldn't let me cross out asymmetric notice clauses. I also neglected to sign an NDA for about two years once; I was asked to sign and scan prior to employment, but had some equipment issues and was told we'd do it on the first day, but it was forgotten, until investors wanted to see that everyone had an NDA prior to the next round of investment.
ehnto 7y ago
I know this probably limits my career potential, but I consistently choose smaller companies and enjoy avoiding this kind of thing. There are software "mom and pop" companies all over the place, itching to find a good hire. I sign exactly one piece of paper, my employment contract, and they've always been good about negotiating good terms that allow me to keep my side projects and things of that nature. I think I would sooner change career than move into a corporate sized company, no matter how "startup" the culture is.
- goostavos 7y ago
  I've had mixed results going this approach early in my career. At small companies, you can find some _shockingly_ huge egos. "Tiny kings, in tiny kingdoms" as they say. The worst one was where during the interview, the interviewer specifically warned about the dynamics of the place: "we serve at the pleasure." And indeed we did. The owner expected bizarre rigid behaviors. For one, everybody clocked in/out (a question that didn't occur to me to even ask about), and if you clocked in >5 minutes after when you were supposed to start, you had to go to HR and sign a document explaining why. This was a development gig. We also had to watch cartoons made by the owners wife. Absolutely bizarre place. I made it about 6mo before getting the hell outta there. The other notable "small shop" experience was when I stopped getting paid on time and the company credit card started getting declined. MegaCorp1 is nice in the way that the others were not.
  - fuzz4lyfe 7y ago
    Were the cartoons work related?
jlj 7y ago
I once accepted an offer and the next day I put in my 2 week notice at my new job, and later the same day I found out from a press release that the my new employer was being acquired. A year or so into the new job, the CEO emailed everyone in the company a restrictive NDA, non-compete, non-solicitation contract and told everyone to sign it. It included language about theft of company forms or documents among other things. I looked at the metadata of the contract doc and the "company" tag was the CEO's previous employer. Which told me that the CEO "stole" the doc from his previous company, and was asking everyone to sign something saying they wouldn't do the same. Because of that I decided not to sign it. Several other colleagues refused it too. No one was terminated, but there was a large staff exodus shortly after who were solicited by another former employee. I stayed on another 6 months to finish a project but left after that to join my former coworkers. I would have been open to signing if I was compensated for it, but that option wasn't on the table, and I wasn't willing to restrict my future ability to find work with no benefit to me. Lesson learned: Reusing legal forms from old companies can cost a lot more than a proper lawyer review would have cost. Don't take shortcuts when signing OR asking people to sign a legal document.
StevePerkins 7y ago
Not saying this is right or proper... but if you are in the U.S. then this was almost certainly about corporate tax reporting. Your salary may or may not be deductible from the company's business tax, depending on whether your work is classified as an "operational" or "capital" expense. Different companies are more or less zealous in how they collect documentation for these tax deductions. I've worked for companies where management just "handles it", and it's invisible to employees. I've worked for companies that not only make salaried employees log hours, but also do separate them by project code (with some codes being "operational" and other "capital").
tracker1 7y ago
I've rarely had any pushback over clarification or refusing to sign as-is. A lot of the time a strike-through on a portion of a contract is sufficient. My bigger issue is electronic signing against versions that don't have the option of striking a line or two. My biggest concerns are outside contributions and IP. Personally, I don't believe in Software Patents for the most part, and will not give up rights for stuff I build on my own time.
thechao 7y ago
I was in exactly this situation at UTMB Galveston around 2002ish. I ended up in a room with the manager who decided to implement the policy & one of the hospital's lawyers. The lawyer was patiently explaining to the incoherently-sobbing manager that: 1. UTMB Galveston was indemnified from her mistakes by her employment contract; 2. She owed me something like 60000$ in unpaid compensation, and that the State of Texas would probably penalize her another 250-500k$; and, 3. A cursory investigation showed that there was probably another several million in fines & compensation, outstanding in the complaint, that she would have to pay. We "settled" with an official apology, an official write up in her permanent record, & a change in policy. (She quietly "left" shortly thereafter.) If you have to track your hours to be paid (or not terminated), then you are by definition not a salaried employee: you are hourly. The way the FLSA works is it asks how the employer treats the employee — if you're treated like you're salaried, then you're salaried. Legally, there's no notion of 'salary' and 'hourly' outside of this. (Ignoring all the real complexities of the law.) Requiring an hourly worker to falsify statements of hourly work is a serious crime. The repercussions are pretty crazy.
- papln 7y ago
  > 1. UTMB Galveston was indemnified from her mistakes by her employment contract; For a low-level manager? That's insane and I'd be shocked to see that hold up in court. > Requiring an hourly worker to falsify statements of hourly work is a serious crime. Maybe, but it's also one of the most common non-punished crimes in the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_theft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wage_theft
  - reaperducer 7y ago
    For a low-level manager? That's insane and I'd be shocked to see that hold up in court. I wouldn't. In the United States, you don't screw with labor law. Pay your employees late a couple of times, and if the right bureaucrat finds out, your company is gone.
- alasdair_ 7y ago
  >If you have to track your hours to be paid (or not terminated), then you are by definition not a salaried employee: you are hourly. Every law firm I know of has their associates keep track of hours and all are on salary. I assume the lawyers know what they are doing.

pjc50 7y ago

I've once been in that situation where the company tried to introduce a contract rewrite with the standard lack of clarity over whether it applied to everything, including outside work (e.g. open source contributions). There were enough open source developers in the company that this was a big problem. So we all just refused to sign the contract change. The situation stalled for a few months, and they eventually backed down and wrote in a clarification. This was the UK, so we actually had rights and couldn't just be arbitrarily sacked, and everyone was aware that pursuing individuals over this would lead to a mass exodus and the destruction of the company.

C1sc0cat 7y ago
Not signing a new contract in the UK is not as protected as you think here. Unless TUPE applies where there are protections
- pjc50 7y ago
  Not protected in the formal sense, but the old one still applied with its month's notice in both directions. Really the key factor was the difficulty in replacing developers.
CapitalistCartr 7y ago
That's the effect of unionizing, that is, sticking together.
- TazeTSchnitzel 7y ago
  Collective bargaining, indeed! A union is merely this formalised.
- alasdair_ 7y ago
  In the UK, you can't legally get fired without cause, regardless of being in a union or not. (You can be made redundant but shrug).
  - 7y ago

redorb 7y ago

Had to quit the company I worked at for 4-5 years after the owner died his wife took over - and tried to force non competes that were forever and transferable if the business was sold etc.. The contract was so broad there was no way it was valid. The kicker was she was withholding my standard'ish larg'ish bonus. I just walked and finally she came around - took years for us to mend our relationship.

xiii1408 7y ago
Shit! Did you get the bonus in the end?
- redorb 7y ago
  Oh yeah on day 3, she said come in and we'll talk... Talked for 2 hours and she was still stuck on the contract. Finally I told her 'I feel like that check your holding is already mine' - aka your on the verge of theft.. I immediately spent the next month negotiating the bonus into the base pay. Took a few years to regain trust and now I'm at a glass ceiling (which I won't complain about but feel fortunate about)
rolltiide 7y ago
I actually don't mind signing unenforceable contracts. You don't have to say anything, life can be like a game of poker. If your perception of reality is correct, you gain outsize influence, if it is incorrect (or more specifically "can't gain consensus") then you are poor or are imprisoned or killed. Do you gain a benefit by informing someone else about their perception of reality? I primarily try to be rich enough to exercise my perception of reality in appeals court, because thats the only place it really matters.
- alasdair_ 7y ago
  I do the same thing. It's not even necessary to be especially rich in most cases, so long as you took the time to read the relevant statutes and case law in advance. An hour on a search engine is often enough.
- 7y ago