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We have some family friends that are decent people, but lousy parents. After about 16 years of observation two of their kids have graduated (one with honors) a

We have some family friends that are decent people, but lousy parents. After about 16 years of observation two of their kids have graduated (one with honors) and the older they get, the more decent they have become, very similar to their parents. What I learned: Kids will turn out like their parents. And poorly skilled parents can still raise decent and well behaved kids. Who you are and how you treat people is more important than technical skills to get your kids to behave.

kungfooey 7y ago
This is the whole thesis of the (very good) book by Bryan Caplan, "Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids."
watwut 7y ago
Why are they lousy parents?
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  It's a combination of a lot of things. Heavy drinking, gambling, lying to each other (parents), kids don't have bed times or waking times, miss school when they are too tired. Force the older kids to watch the younger kids so they can smoke, drink and talk with friends instead of watch their own kids. Kids would scream and fall on the ground when aren't noticed... the parents will be in the same room talking with friends while their kids scream at them... etc... Keep in mind, I like these people, odd as they are, we just don't participate in much of what they do/have done that I disagree with. Our friendship overlaps a nice quiet area in life where we barbequed together, and mostly relax and let kids play or school activities. They do sometimes overcompensate it odd ways, sending their kids to camps and overly involved in sports and outside school stuff. But they are kind, helpful, hard workers. And despite the fact that they don't do many things well, they do spend time with their kids. Maybe there's something valuable about time spent, even if it's not "well" based on parenting experts advice?
  - cloverich 7y ago
    IMHO time spent is the most important part of good parenting, by a lot. Necessary but not sufficient and all. Obviously there's much more, but that's a baseline a lot of kids don't get, and it shows more than anything else (outside of horrors like abuse, obviously). I don't think having older kids watch younger ones to give the parents some free time is a negative; you give up _so_ much of your time as a parent its hard to even describe.
    - RobertRoberts 7y ago
      It's valid point to have the older kids help, it just bothered me how it was done. The mom would basically expect a 10 year old girl to change diapers while the other kids played, and the mom drank. (the reliance on the older kids was just over the top) Again, these are friends of ours who we care about, but they did some things that seemed selfish. But again, their adult children and decent and so far well adjusted. I have kids too, eventually you are done doing the baby-chores like diaper duty. It is exhausting at times, but it's not forever.
dragonwriter 7y ago
> Who you are and how you treat people is more important than technical skills to get your kids to behave. Or, rather, the actual most important “technical skill to get your kids to behave”, in the long term view is modelling the behavior you want to see.
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  I think you are correct, I would add that by nature it seems kids model their behavior after their parents somewhat automatically. I've turned my family around from some pretty bad behavior simply by changing how I act. If they don't change automatically to follow, I may have to point out the change I made, and that I expect them to as well.
cadlin 7y ago
Perhaps they're decent parents, and you're a lousy judge of parenting?
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  Sure, that's possible. One issue they had was their kids stayed up too late, didn't get enough sleep and screamed a lot near the end of the day. They were late to school (in elementary level) because the parents were tired too. I think this is objectively bad parenting... but I could be wrong. Edit: since I got one down vote let me add > they scream at their kids regularly (daily, sometimes the normal tone), let them play video games endlessly without supervision, and many other odd things. Kept a dog in a crate permanently in the house where it crapped and screeched at everyone. The list is long... Look at my other comments, I don't want to keep piling things on, but do some pretty outlandish things as parents.
  - foolfoolz 7y ago
    sounds like wrong because different
    - RobertRoberts 7y ago
      Well, I should probably not have said "objectively", but we were comparing against the article titled "how to parent more predictably"... so I felt that was a fair assessment.
fiftyfifty 7y ago
I have 3 kids in their late teens or early twenties and we have known a lot of other parents with kids in the same age group. I have seen the exact opposite when it comes to outcome, I have seen otherwise good, intelligent people produce drug addicts and sociopaths due to their lack of parenting. I have seen hard working, successful parents produce lazy, unmotivated adults who are still living at home in their early to mid twenties with no plans to attend school or find any way to support themselves. It's still definitely nature and nurture when it comes to producing functional adults as a parent. Kids do not always turn out like their parents and we have thousands of years of written history to prove it.
- RobertRoberts 7y ago
  The term "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" agrees with assessment that kids mimic their parents. But I certainly would claim "always", but I would say that if parents are absent, it's less likely they will copy their parents. Perhaps that is the key difference? My friends spend time with their kids, even if it isn't "quality time". Maybe neglectful parents can't don't pass on good traits as easily?

kungfooey 7y ago

This is the whole thesis of the (very good) book by Bryan Caplan, "Selfish Reasons to Have More Kids."

watwut 7y ago

Why are they lousy parents?

RobertRoberts 7y ago
It's a combination of a lot of things. Heavy drinking, gambling, lying to each other (parents), kids don't have bed times or waking times, miss school when they are too tired. Force the older kids to watch the younger kids so they can smoke, drink and talk with friends instead of watch their own kids. Kids would scream and fall on the ground when aren't noticed... the parents will be in the same room talking with friends while their kids scream at them... etc... Keep in mind, I like these people, odd as they are, we just don't participate in much of what they do/have done that I disagree with. Our friendship overlaps a nice quiet area in life where we barbequed together, and mostly relax and let kids play or school activities. They do sometimes overcompensate it odd ways, sending their kids to camps and overly involved in sports and outside school stuff. But they are kind, helpful, hard workers. And despite the fact that they don't do many things well, they do spend time with their kids. Maybe there's something valuable about time spent, even if it's not "well" based on parenting experts advice?
- cloverich 7y ago
  IMHO time spent is the most important part of good parenting, by a lot. Necessary but not sufficient and all. Obviously there's much more, but that's a baseline a lot of kids don't get, and it shows more than anything else (outside of horrors like abuse, obviously). I don't think having older kids watch younger ones to give the parents some free time is a negative; you give up _so_ much of your time as a parent its hard to even describe.
  - RobertRoberts 7y ago
    It's valid point to have the older kids help, it just bothered me how it was done. The mom would basically expect a 10 year old girl to change diapers while the other kids played, and the mom drank. (the reliance on the older kids was just over the top) Again, these are friends of ours who we care about, but they did some things that seemed selfish. But again, their adult children and decent and so far well adjusted. I have kids too, eventually you are done doing the baby-chores like diaper duty. It is exhausting at times, but it's not forever.

dragonwriter 7y ago

> Who you are and how you treat people is more important than technical skills to get your kids to behave. Or, rather, the actual most important “technical skill to get your kids to behave”, in the long term view is modelling the behavior you want to see.

RobertRoberts 7y ago
I think you are correct, I would add that by nature it seems kids model their behavior after their parents somewhat automatically. I've turned my family around from some pretty bad behavior simply by changing how I act. If they don't change automatically to follow, I may have to point out the change I made, and that I expect them to as well.

cadlin 7y ago

Perhaps they're decent parents, and you're a lousy judge of parenting?

RobertRoberts 7y ago
Sure, that's possible. One issue they had was their kids stayed up too late, didn't get enough sleep and screamed a lot near the end of the day. They were late to school (in elementary level) because the parents were tired too. I think this is objectively bad parenting... but I could be wrong. Edit: since I got one down vote let me add > they scream at their kids regularly (daily, sometimes the normal tone), let them play video games endlessly without supervision, and many other odd things. Kept a dog in a crate permanently in the house where it crapped and screeched at everyone. The list is long... Look at my other comments, I don't want to keep piling things on, but do some pretty outlandish things as parents.
- foolfoolz 7y ago
  sounds like wrong because different
  - RobertRoberts 7y ago
    Well, I should probably not have said "objectively", but we were comparing against the article titled "how to parent more predictably"... so I felt that was a fair assessment.

fiftyfifty 7y ago

I have 3 kids in their late teens or early twenties and we have known a lot of other parents with kids in the same age group. I have seen the exact opposite when it comes to outcome, I have seen otherwise good, intelligent people produce drug addicts and sociopaths due to their lack of parenting. I have seen hard working, successful parents produce lazy, unmotivated adults who are still living at home in their early to mid twenties with no plans to attend school or find any way to support themselves. It's still definitely nature and nurture when it comes to producing functional adults as a parent. Kids do not always turn out like their parents and we have thousands of years of written history to prove it.

RobertRoberts 7y ago
The term "the apple doesn't fall far from the tree" agrees with assessment that kids mimic their parents. But I certainly would claim "always", but I would say that if parents are absent, it's less likely they will copy their parents. Perhaps that is the key difference? My friends spend time with their kids, even if it isn't "quality time". Maybe neglectful parents can't don't pass on good traits as easily?