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Hong Kong Protests Live Updates: Police Violence Puts Government on Defensive

179 points by ishikawa 7y ago

deleted 7y ago
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supercall 7y ago
I'm curious what the specific difference is between the people of Hong Kong and the people of America, that permits the people of Hong Kong to protest authoritarianism. Ostensibly, the Americans have just as much to protest with their current president and even previous authoritarian tendencies. Yet they rarely march in the Millions.
- Normal_gaussian 7y ago
  They have a very clear view of what lies at the bottom of the slippery slope.
- godzillabrennus 7y ago
  This Hong Kong situation is based on abdication of their human rights to a government guilty of the most egregious democide in history. The USA has a politically incorrect orange man in the White House who gets offended easily. Not sure how you draw parallels here but happy to understand better.
  - StavrosK 7y ago
    I disagree with the GP's equating the two, but there are events like outright murders of innocent people by police officers that never get protested in the US, except maybe by people in the black communities. Those strike me like something that should be protested but isn't. In comparison, when years ago a police officer shot and killed a 16 year old for no reason in my country, there were outright riots and the officer is serving a life sentence. Then again, I guess there are many things we don't protest.
    - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
      > Those strike me like something that should be protested but isn't We have elections. That gives our government a mandate to act and incentive to measure public opinion. There is a lot of progress needed on police reform, but don’t throw out the bounds we’ve made in the last decade alone. Protest is prudent once democratic means have been exhausted, or to draw attention to an issue. Police violence already has the public’s attention. There is an ongoing debate around the proper solution, with trials around decriminalisation, special prosecutors, body cameras, et cetera going into play around the country. We haven’t frequently seen 1/7th of a city rise up in protest because we have other ways of effecting change. Hong Kong did too. But Beijing doesn’t.
      - StavrosK 7y ago
        Sure, but don't underestimate how clear a signal protests send.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
  - pm90 7y ago
    nice downplay of the crimes of the Orange man. Do you think that authoritarian regimes seize power outright? Even Hitler had to wait for the burning of the Reichstag, the symbolic destruction of the legislative body, to outright seize power. Before that it was a series of breaking norms, passing laws systematically criminalizing certain groups, propaganda against them etc. How is that different from the orange mans hate of immigrants that all his supporters seem to share?
    - Macross8299 7y ago
      I don't think "all Trump supporters hate immigrants" is a fair characterization, given that there are quite a few immigrants who are Trump supporters themselves. also, Godwin's law?
- shakyshakyshaky 7y ago
  America is incredible effective at suppressing protest. Not just as the protest is happening, but before it begins.
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  I'm largely ignorant to the politics involved, but aren't these protests against extradition to mainland China? I imagine there's a social identity at play here that American's don't have.
- hkai 7y ago
  I'm watching American politics closely, but it doesn't seem anywhere close to China. Imagine if US was planning to send people suspected of offending Kim Jong Un into North Korea.
  - csyszf 7y ago
    No need to imagine, Meng Wanzhou is still in Canada, and the US is telling British send Assange back. Wake up man.
- 88840-8855 7y ago
  My girlfriend is from HK and she is very intense these days. She is very well educated and comes from a wealthy family. However, she feels a strong connection to HK, even-though she is not living there for over 10 years already (and does not want to return). I have asked her about her emotions and feelings. To quote her. She says that she hates the Chinese. She hates China and all people living there. She feels that all actions that are linked to the Chinese government (such as the current law) are an attack on her country. Thus, she is posting a lot of biased and super heavy crap on social media these days and is full of hate against the police (who are ironically also Hong Kong people, but she does not care). What we see there is just a terrible eruption of anti-China emotions. People need to vent. Ironically, my girlfriend is also blaming the "rich Chinese" who are "coming to HK and buying all property, which prices out HK people". At the same time, her family owns X apartments in HK and in mainland China.
  - mitfahrener 7y ago
    HK is not a country. And your GF is an ass.
- Shivetya 7y ago
  Well first, be honest here. We suffered far more overreach in the previous Administration which was all to clearly revealed by Snowden and Manning. We had the press actively harassed and investigated by the DOJ and even the IRS. All we have now is the bluster but we don't have sycophants in government agencies jumping to do anything behind the scenes. to be honest, just what in the hell do people in Western nations have to protest about? Not enough screen time? Someone driving a nicer car. The Western world is stupidly well off to the point they have to invent offenses! Whereas people in Hong Kong who enjoy a Western like environment are on the fringe of losing more of their freedoms to a country and regime which have proven over and over again, world opinion does not matter. It certainly does not matter to the leaders of the tech industry we discuss here daily as they all trip over themselves to accommodate China's leadership by keeping manufacturing there and changing software to let that same regime to deny their people more rights and privacy. I don't even want to start on the third world environment, where your primary concern is keeping you and your family alive. Priorities please, reality please. Quit parroting the press and look at the world
  - krisrm 7y ago
    Not to belittle your other points, but I'd say separating migrant parents from their kids is pretty damn low.
- Macross8299 7y ago
  The difference is that the US government isn't known for disappearing thousands of dissidents without trial and the president has a term limit. It's really not the same at all.
88840-8855 7y ago
Police brutality is pure shit and has to be internally investigated and transparently resolved. However, I dislike the current biased image and video reporting on Hong Kong protests. I understand that this plays perfectly into the current anti-China narrative, but we should be aware that such things are never one-sided and simple. There is a lot of shit going on from both sides: police and violent protesters. To make a balance to the highly inacceptable police behaviour, please also find footage speaking against violent protesters: Protestors "arming up": https://i.redd.it/faobvwh4qx331.jpg https://i.redd.it/faobvwh4qx331.jpg Protestors beating up a police man: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/bzza2h/peaceful_protestors_won_battle_against_police/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/bzza2h/peaceful_p... The moment when it escalated (the protestors goal was to storm the building, police was behaving in a de-escalative way by withdrawing, while being attacked by objects thrown into the police lines): https://www.twitch.tv/videos/437882587?t=03h05m00s https://www.twitch.tv/videos/437882587?t=03h05m00s Coverage of protestors behaving aggressively: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQfOfIAexzw&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQfOfIAexzw&feature=youtu.be Again, all this does NOT excuse any tit for toe police brutality attack. But I am a believer of fair and balanced reporting and I want to see both sides.
- Vraxx 7y ago
  In the interest of being fair and balanced, I often account for the imbalance of power, or else we wouldn't be seeing any conflict at all. Often the threat of violence is enough to coerce, and that doesn't get coverage. So when there is violent protests, I'm going to give more lenience to the group with far less power and force.
- jacobush 7y ago
  Yes, I felt something in tune with that. I sympathize with people protesting the China machine taking over. But storming a parliament rarely ends well, and I respect substantial efforts to prevent that, especially in a somewhat functioning democracy such as Hong Kong still is.
  - aaomidi 7y ago
    ...the parliament is literally ignoring millions of people on the streets. At some point you make violent protest and revolution inevitable. Peace for the sake of peace is useless and an extremely centrist view.
ChrisBland 7y ago
This was an inevitable conclusion, I grew up in Hong Kong and we left in 1996 during the handover along with many other ex-pats. We saw the writing on the wall as did many others based on how horrible the handover was going. It is a true shame what is happening to Hong Kong now but I don't see China relenting to pressure as that would only embolden other cities to do similar protests. I worry for my friends who are still there as the only way this is going to end is in a continued escalation of violence. As someone who visited Tiananmen Square in the early 90s, it was amazing how quickly the country moved on and refused to discuss it. I worry that is what is going to happen in HK.
- germinalphrase 7y ago
  The ability to suppress discussion/political action in response to such a significant event (such as Tiananmen Square) would seem more difficult now with ubiquitous cameras. Many records can be made, but can they also be shared widely enough to maintain political pressure? Maybe not, if the population is dependent on government controlled internet infrastructure. This makes Starlink more interesting. How do you prevent your population from using foreign built satellite internet if that country should choose to make it freely available to your citizens? Do you simply lose control? Do you try to rebuild/force roll out a proprietary, non-interoperable telecommunications system? After seeing the impact of telecommunications and social media propaganda on recent world events (for instance, the Arab Spring) - I’m sure there are smart people thinking about how to plug populations into the internet against the desires of the home country. Satellite based internet seems like an obvious solution, but maybe it’s not even as complicated as that.
  - Macross8299 7y ago
    Hate to be "that guy", but public blockchain technologies are another strong tool that people have for resisting censorship [0]. It's much, much harder to nullroute blockchain traffic as opposed to nullrouting a website with information you want to censor. It's also very clear that the CCP is afraid of such technologies [1] The rub is of course, this censorship-resistance being predicated on the consensus mechanism of a blockchain not being concentrated in one country. [0]: https://theconversation.com/chinese-internet-users-turn-to-the-blockchain-to-fight-against-government-censorship-111795 https://theconversation.com/chinese-internet-users-turn-to-t... [1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-blockchain/china-imposes-blockchain-rules-to-enable-orderly-development-idUSKCN1P41FX https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-blockchain/china-im...
exabrial 7y ago
I hope these people stay strong when the heavy handed crackdown occurs. This time there are millions of cameras watching.
- megous 7y ago
  That's of very little comfort in today's world. For example: People in EU can see footage of drowning people trying to cross the mediteranean sea, and react by punishing the orgnizations who try to help. Really, the interpretation of events matters much much more, than some footage.
  - vanattab 7y ago
    I think he is referring to the millions of Chinese government cameras with facial recognition.
nabla9 7y ago
It seems that the government is not giving up. The politics in HK pseudo-democracy seems complex. Is there any way to democratically remove pro-Beijing camp from the power? Unless there is, it seems like the government just has to weather the storm.
- usaar333 7y ago
  Yes, but you need a very tilted election toward them due to the indirect nature of the election. Probably about 65% of vote against Beijing parties would do it.
- my_username_is_ 7y ago
  It's exceedingly unlikely to happen (and Beijing would likely find a way to prevent it from happening) in the legislature ("Legco"). This is due to combination of proportional representation in the geographic constituencies, and the fact that half the seats are taken up by functional constituencies which are mostly pro-Beijing. And the Chief Executive is explicitly chosen from a pool of pro-Beijing candidates, so that wouldn't happen unless the law is changed. (The law that enacted this in 2014 was one of the sparks for the so-called "Umbrella Revolution") Some relevant wiki articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_NPCSC_Decision_on_Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_NPCSC_Decision_on_Hong_Ko... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Council_of_Hong_Kong#Membership_composition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Council_of_Hong_Ko...
kenneth 7y ago
A key difference to understand between protests in America and in Hong Kong is that there is no division in Hong Kong about the issue. In the US, for example, half of the population opposes Trump and half supports him. There are anti-Trump protests and pro-Trump rally. The US is divided on many issues. In Hong Kong, the whole population is united against the government. The territory is democratic on paper, but no longer in practice and basically run by the CCP. (Note, recently moved from the US to HK and went to see the protests for myself yesterday, though I didn't actively participate)
- codezero 7y ago
  I’d like to believe that but just yesterday someone posted links to a Chinese news site showing lots of visible support for the pro government side. Lots of signs in the city showing support and a fleet of fishing boats with signs. Even if this is pure propaganda it shows there is visible support (even if artificial).
  - Macross8299 7y ago
    Fishing boats could've been requisitioned from anywhere. Signs put up by party cadres. I think those are perhaps examples of propaganda that everyone on the ground there knows is false but are put up for the sake of the international media. I don't get the impression that there is much support for the pro-government side among HKers at all, from the couple I know living abroad.
  - my_username_is_ 7y ago
    Upwards of 1 million people were at the protest this past Sunday. There's only a population of 7 million people in the entire SAR. That's the proportional equivalent of every man, woman &child in California, Oregon and Washington meeting in a single spot to protest something. Even if not everyone agrees on the exact details of what they're protesting, seeing that much passionate support behind a cause is a good indicator that the outrage is widespread.
    - throwawayctyga3 7y ago
rkapsoro 7y ago
The only thing that can serve to enforce the Joint Declaration (and similar bi-lateral agreements between countries) is if the signatories uphold and maintain their expectations of the other. For the last two decades, China has been testing for any response on the part of the British to encroachments on HK's autonomy. Britain has largely remained mum, failing to call out China on increasing violations of the Joint Declaration and the Basic Law. Then things really accelerated with the premiership of Xi Jinping, and those tests have come thicker and faster. While Britain doesn't necessarily have a large amount of leverage these days with its own problems going on, taking a principled stand on things in the public eye is not without its benefits.
- pm90 7y ago
  Taking a principled stand only goes so far. If they’re challenged on that stand and don’t end up following through, it would make perfectly clear that Britain has 0 leverage, which I guess is scary for the British Government. Even if that is the truth.
  - NeedMoreTea 7y ago
    Offering residency to every Cantonese HKer is not exactly 0 leverage. The could unilaterally have offered any number of places over the years since 97 in response to the many Chinese actions. HK is no longer the star relative to the rest of the Chinese economy so the influence of that is now far less than it might have been in the early 00s. Britain once had influence within the EU and chose to throw that away. They could have used that influence to try and get a stronger reaction from the EU to the many and repeated transgressions, of both the word and principle of the Sino British declaration. It's really sad to see that the only one consistently speaking out against Chinese actions has been Chris Patten, the last Governor.
    - tomatocracy 7y ago
      Yes, although practicality of identifying who that means might mean that we do something slightly short of that - we could grant broader rights of abode and to work in the UK to British National (Overseas) passport holders (which anyone resident in HK prior to 1997 was eligible for and very large numbers registered for) in the same way we did in the early 2000s for what are now called British Overseas Territories Citizens (citizens of the remaining UK colonies).
digianarchist 7y ago
China is going to use these protests as an excuse to accelerate taking control of Hong Kong.
- pm90 7y ago
  If Democracy were to die in HK, I think it’s better for it to die this way rather than a silent squeal like what has happened here in America. The executive runs roughshod ignoring laws and subpoenas, the idiot President openly invites foreign assistance to win elections and not a single protest among over 300 million so called Patriotic Americans.
  - kazagistar 7y ago
    It died with Citizens United, and everything since then from Democrats and Republicans is just parts of the game of keeping the masses content while selling out to the oligarchs. If you didn't notice til Trump, you weren't paying attention. But it's still nothing compared to the Hong Kong situation, so there is that I guess.
  - kmonsen 7y ago
    100% agree. It shocks me a little bit how few protests there are in the US right now.
Mikeb85 7y ago
Police 'violence'? Have they never been to America? Or seen any G8 meeting in Canada or Europe? Talk about propaganda...
- huac 7y ago
  Yes, Americans are #1 in the world for police violence. And congratulations to us! edit: I earlier said that this was the first time HK used teargas/rubber bullets, which is inaccurate. the important thing is that this is still violence, just because the US beats everyone in terms of sheer scale/frequency/intensity of police violence doesn't mean that this isn't police violence.
  - my_username_is_ 7y ago
    Tear gas was definitely used in '14, see this image from the Umbrella Movement protests: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests#/media/File:2014_Hong_Kong_Umbrella_Revolution_as_Police_Attacked_Peaceful_Demonstrators_with_Tear_Gas_%E9%A6%99%E6%B8%AF%E6%B8%A3%E6%89%93%E9%9D%A9%E5%91%BD%E4%B9%8B%E5%92%8C%E5%B9%B3%E6%8A%97%E8%AD%B0%E7%9A%84%E9%A6%99%E6%B8%AF%E4%BA%BA%E6%B0%91%E4%BB%A5%E9%9B%A8%E5%82%98%E5%B0%8D%E6%8A%97%E7%99%BC%E7%A4%BE%E5%82%AC%E6%B7%9A%E5%BD%88%E7%9A%84%E6%B8%AF%E8%AD%A6.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests#/media... Multiple sources also mention rubber bullets being used in '14 as well: https://www.google.com/search?q=umbrella+revolution+rubber+bullets&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS745US745&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A%2Ccd_max%3A6%2F1%2F2019&tbm= https://www.google.com/search?q=umbrella+revolution+rubber+b...
    - huac 7y ago
      ah, you're right, I misread the SCMP coverage yesterday, guess when they said "tear gas was used for the first time" that it was the first time ever, and not just within the protests this time. the NYT article also has: "The use of rubber bullets represented a turning point in the police response and was the first time the government acknowledged using the nonlethal rounds in Hong Kong in decades. The police response following the protesters’ push toward the Legislative Council was noticeably more aggressive as peaceful protests became more pitched throughout the day." So maybe the use of force hasn't changed vs 2014, but the government's brazenness has.
pastyboy 7y ago
We trade with China so readily without even a thought of the kind of dark totalitarian regime reigns, anything for profit right ? Feel very sorry for the HK citizens but there is nothing the UK can do, HK being returned to China was seen as part of the end of UK influence which (people wanted?), meaning we have 0 influence now. However being under the sphere of China's political surveillance system is clearly not what anybody wanted. I noted with interest how citizens binned all digital methods of payment and comms to avoid be prosecuted for being at the demonstrations retrospectively and presumably extradited to some prison factory in China if the extradition dictat gets through. Anyway IMHO Trump has inadvertently tried to reset the balance and caused the Chinese alot of problems by starving them of tech know how and trade. But as we know Presidents come and go - Communist China is eternal - they will just wait for the next leader to turn around and sell out everyone.
- throwawayctyga3 7y ago
  That should be evident by the fact that Saudi Arabia is one of our closest allies.

179 points by ishikawa 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

I'm curious what the specific difference is between the people of Hong Kong and the people of America, that permits the people of Hong Kong to protest authoritarianism. Ostensibly, the Americans have just as much to protest with their current president and even previous authoritarian tendencies. Yet they rarely march in the Millions.

Normal_gaussian 7y ago
They have a very clear view of what lies at the bottom of the slippery slope.
godzillabrennus 7y ago
This Hong Kong situation is based on abdication of their human rights to a government guilty of the most egregious democide in history. The USA has a politically incorrect orange man in the White House who gets offended easily. Not sure how you draw parallels here but happy to understand better.
- StavrosK 7y ago
  I disagree with the GP's equating the two, but there are events like outright murders of innocent people by police officers that never get protested in the US, except maybe by people in the black communities. Those strike me like something that should be protested but isn't. In comparison, when years ago a police officer shot and killed a 16 year old for no reason in my country, there were outright riots and the officer is serving a life sentence. Then again, I guess there are many things we don't protest.
  - JumpCrisscross 7y ago
    > Those strike me like something that should be protested but isn't We have elections. That gives our government a mandate to act and incentive to measure public opinion. There is a lot of progress needed on police reform, but don’t throw out the bounds we’ve made in the last decade alone. Protest is prudent once democratic means have been exhausted, or to draw attention to an issue. Police violence already has the public’s attention. There is an ongoing debate around the proper solution, with trials around decriminalisation, special prosecutors, body cameras, et cetera going into play around the country. We haven’t frequently seen 1/7th of a city rise up in protest because we have other ways of effecting change. Hong Kong did too. But Beijing doesn’t.
    - StavrosK 7y ago
      Sure, but don't underestimate how clear a signal protests send.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
- pm90 7y ago
  nice downplay of the crimes of the Orange man. Do you think that authoritarian regimes seize power outright? Even Hitler had to wait for the burning of the Reichstag, the symbolic destruction of the legislative body, to outright seize power. Before that it was a series of breaking norms, passing laws systematically criminalizing certain groups, propaganda against them etc. How is that different from the orange mans hate of immigrants that all his supporters seem to share?
  - Macross8299 7y ago
    I don't think "all Trump supporters hate immigrants" is a fair characterization, given that there are quite a few immigrants who are Trump supporters themselves. also, Godwin's law?
shakyshakyshaky 7y ago
America is incredible effective at suppressing protest. Not just as the protest is happening, but before it begins.
SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
I'm largely ignorant to the politics involved, but aren't these protests against extradition to mainland China? I imagine there's a social identity at play here that American's don't have.
hkai 7y ago
I'm watching American politics closely, but it doesn't seem anywhere close to China. Imagine if US was planning to send people suspected of offending Kim Jong Un into North Korea.
- csyszf 7y ago
  No need to imagine, Meng Wanzhou is still in Canada, and the US is telling British send Assange back. Wake up man.
88840-8855 7y ago
My girlfriend is from HK and she is very intense these days. She is very well educated and comes from a wealthy family. However, she feels a strong connection to HK, even-though she is not living there for over 10 years already (and does not want to return). I have asked her about her emotions and feelings. To quote her. She says that she hates the Chinese. She hates China and all people living there. She feels that all actions that are linked to the Chinese government (such as the current law) are an attack on her country. Thus, she is posting a lot of biased and super heavy crap on social media these days and is full of hate against the police (who are ironically also Hong Kong people, but she does not care). What we see there is just a terrible eruption of anti-China emotions. People need to vent. Ironically, my girlfriend is also blaming the "rich Chinese" who are "coming to HK and buying all property, which prices out HK people". At the same time, her family owns X apartments in HK and in mainland China.
- mitfahrener 7y ago
  HK is not a country. And your GF is an ass.
Shivetya 7y ago
Well first, be honest here. We suffered far more overreach in the previous Administration which was all to clearly revealed by Snowden and Manning. We had the press actively harassed and investigated by the DOJ and even the IRS. All we have now is the bluster but we don't have sycophants in government agencies jumping to do anything behind the scenes. to be honest, just what in the hell do people in Western nations have to protest about? Not enough screen time? Someone driving a nicer car. The Western world is stupidly well off to the point they have to invent offenses! Whereas people in Hong Kong who enjoy a Western like environment are on the fringe of losing more of their freedoms to a country and regime which have proven over and over again, world opinion does not matter. It certainly does not matter to the leaders of the tech industry we discuss here daily as they all trip over themselves to accommodate China's leadership by keeping manufacturing there and changing software to let that same regime to deny their people more rights and privacy. I don't even want to start on the third world environment, where your primary concern is keeping you and your family alive. Priorities please, reality please. Quit parroting the press and look at the world
- krisrm 7y ago
  Not to belittle your other points, but I'd say separating migrant parents from their kids is pretty damn low.
Macross8299 7y ago
The difference is that the US government isn't known for disappearing thousands of dissidents without trial and the president has a term limit. It's really not the same at all.

88840-8855 7y ago

Police brutality is pure shit and has to be internally investigated and transparently resolved. However, I dislike the current biased image and video reporting on Hong Kong protests. I understand that this plays perfectly into the current anti-China narrative, but we should be aware that such things are never one-sided and simple. There is a lot of shit going on from both sides: police and violent protesters. To make a balance to the highly inacceptable police behaviour, please also find footage speaking against violent protesters: Protestors "arming up": https://i.redd.it/faobvwh4qx331.jpg https://i.redd.it/faobvwh4qx331.jpg Protestors beating up a police man: https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/bzza2h/peaceful_protestors_won_battle_against_police/ https://www.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/bzza2h/peaceful_p... The moment when it escalated (the protestors goal was to storm the building, police was behaving in a de-escalative way by withdrawing, while being attacked by objects thrown into the police lines): https://www.twitch.tv/videos/437882587?t=03h05m00s https://www.twitch.tv/videos/437882587?t=03h05m00s Coverage of protestors behaving aggressively: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQfOfIAexzw&feature=youtu.be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQfOfIAexzw&feature=youtu.be Again, all this does NOT excuse any tit for toe police brutality attack. But I am a believer of fair and balanced reporting and I want to see both sides.

Vraxx 7y ago
In the interest of being fair and balanced, I often account for the imbalance of power, or else we wouldn't be seeing any conflict at all. Often the threat of violence is enough to coerce, and that doesn't get coverage. So when there is violent protests, I'm going to give more lenience to the group with far less power and force.
jacobush 7y ago
Yes, I felt something in tune with that. I sympathize with people protesting the China machine taking over. But storming a parliament rarely ends well, and I respect substantial efforts to prevent that, especially in a somewhat functioning democracy such as Hong Kong still is.
- aaomidi 7y ago
  ...the parliament is literally ignoring millions of people on the streets. At some point you make violent protest and revolution inevitable. Peace for the sake of peace is useless and an extremely centrist view.

ChrisBland 7y ago

This was an inevitable conclusion, I grew up in Hong Kong and we left in 1996 during the handover along with many other ex-pats. We saw the writing on the wall as did many others based on how horrible the handover was going. It is a true shame what is happening to Hong Kong now but I don't see China relenting to pressure as that would only embolden other cities to do similar protests. I worry for my friends who are still there as the only way this is going to end is in a continued escalation of violence. As someone who visited Tiananmen Square in the early 90s, it was amazing how quickly the country moved on and refused to discuss it. I worry that is what is going to happen in HK.

germinalphrase 7y ago
The ability to suppress discussion/political action in response to such a significant event (such as Tiananmen Square) would seem more difficult now with ubiquitous cameras. Many records can be made, but can they also be shared widely enough to maintain political pressure? Maybe not, if the population is dependent on government controlled internet infrastructure. This makes Starlink more interesting. How do you prevent your population from using foreign built satellite internet if that country should choose to make it freely available to your citizens? Do you simply lose control? Do you try to rebuild/force roll out a proprietary, non-interoperable telecommunications system? After seeing the impact of telecommunications and social media propaganda on recent world events (for instance, the Arab Spring) - I’m sure there are smart people thinking about how to plug populations into the internet against the desires of the home country. Satellite based internet seems like an obvious solution, but maybe it’s not even as complicated as that.
- Macross8299 7y ago
  Hate to be "that guy", but public blockchain technologies are another strong tool that people have for resisting censorship [0]. It's much, much harder to nullroute blockchain traffic as opposed to nullrouting a website with information you want to censor. It's also very clear that the CCP is afraid of such technologies [1] The rub is of course, this censorship-resistance being predicated on the consensus mechanism of a blockchain not being concentrated in one country. [0]: https://theconversation.com/chinese-internet-users-turn-to-the-blockchain-to-fight-against-government-censorship-111795 https://theconversation.com/chinese-internet-users-turn-to-t... [1]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-blockchain/china-imposes-blockchain-rules-to-enable-orderly-development-idUSKCN1P41FX https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-blockchain/china-im...

exabrial 7y ago

I hope these people stay strong when the heavy handed crackdown occurs. This time there are millions of cameras watching.

megous 7y ago
That's of very little comfort in today's world. For example: People in EU can see footage of drowning people trying to cross the mediteranean sea, and react by punishing the orgnizations who try to help. Really, the interpretation of events matters much much more, than some footage.
- vanattab 7y ago
  I think he is referring to the millions of Chinese government cameras with facial recognition.

nabla9 7y ago

It seems that the government is not giving up. The politics in HK pseudo-democracy seems complex. Is there any way to democratically remove pro-Beijing camp from the power? Unless there is, it seems like the government just has to weather the storm.

usaar333 7y ago
Yes, but you need a very tilted election toward them due to the indirect nature of the election. Probably about 65% of vote against Beijing parties would do it.
my_username_is_ 7y ago
It's exceedingly unlikely to happen (and Beijing would likely find a way to prevent it from happening) in the legislature ("Legco"). This is due to combination of proportional representation in the geographic constituencies, and the fact that half the seats are taken up by functional constituencies which are mostly pro-Beijing. And the Chief Executive is explicitly chosen from a pool of pro-Beijing candidates, so that wouldn't happen unless the law is changed. (The law that enacted this in 2014 was one of the sparks for the so-called "Umbrella Revolution") Some relevant wiki articles: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_NPCSC_Decision_on_Hong_Kong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_NPCSC_Decision_on_Hong_Ko... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Council_of_Hong_Kong#Membership_composition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legislative_Council_of_Hong_Ko...

kenneth 7y ago

A key difference to understand between protests in America and in Hong Kong is that there is no division in Hong Kong about the issue. In the US, for example, half of the population opposes Trump and half supports him. There are anti-Trump protests and pro-Trump rally. The US is divided on many issues. In Hong Kong, the whole population is united against the government. The territory is democratic on paper, but no longer in practice and basically run by the CCP. (Note, recently moved from the US to HK and went to see the protests for myself yesterday, though I didn't actively participate)

codezero 7y ago
I’d like to believe that but just yesterday someone posted links to a Chinese news site showing lots of visible support for the pro government side. Lots of signs in the city showing support and a fleet of fishing boats with signs. Even if this is pure propaganda it shows there is visible support (even if artificial).
- Macross8299 7y ago
  Fishing boats could've been requisitioned from anywhere. Signs put up by party cadres. I think those are perhaps examples of propaganda that everyone on the ground there knows is false but are put up for the sake of the international media. I don't get the impression that there is much support for the pro-government side among HKers at all, from the couple I know living abroad.
- my_username_is_ 7y ago
  Upwards of 1 million people were at the protest this past Sunday. There's only a population of 7 million people in the entire SAR. That's the proportional equivalent of every man, woman &child in California, Oregon and Washington meeting in a single spot to protest something. Even if not everyone agrees on the exact details of what they're protesting, seeing that much passionate support behind a cause is a good indicator that the outrage is widespread.
  - throwawayctyga3 7y ago

rkapsoro 7y ago

The only thing that can serve to enforce the Joint Declaration (and similar bi-lateral agreements between countries) is if the signatories uphold and maintain their expectations of the other. For the last two decades, China has been testing for any response on the part of the British to encroachments on HK's autonomy. Britain has largely remained mum, failing to call out China on increasing violations of the Joint Declaration and the Basic Law. Then things really accelerated with the premiership of Xi Jinping, and those tests have come thicker and faster. While Britain doesn't necessarily have a large amount of leverage these days with its own problems going on, taking a principled stand on things in the public eye is not without its benefits.

pm90 7y ago
Taking a principled stand only goes so far. If they’re challenged on that stand and don’t end up following through, it would make perfectly clear that Britain has 0 leverage, which I guess is scary for the British Government. Even if that is the truth.
- NeedMoreTea 7y ago
  Offering residency to every Cantonese HKer is not exactly 0 leverage. The could unilaterally have offered any number of places over the years since 97 in response to the many Chinese actions. HK is no longer the star relative to the rest of the Chinese economy so the influence of that is now far less than it might have been in the early 00s. Britain once had influence within the EU and chose to throw that away. They could have used that influence to try and get a stronger reaction from the EU to the many and repeated transgressions, of both the word and principle of the Sino British declaration. It's really sad to see that the only one consistently speaking out against Chinese actions has been Chris Patten, the last Governor.
  - tomatocracy 7y ago
    Yes, although practicality of identifying who that means might mean that we do something slightly short of that - we could grant broader rights of abode and to work in the UK to British National (Overseas) passport holders (which anyone resident in HK prior to 1997 was eligible for and very large numbers registered for) in the same way we did in the early 2000s for what are now called British Overseas Territories Citizens (citizens of the remaining UK colonies).

digianarchist 7y ago

China is going to use these protests as an excuse to accelerate taking control of Hong Kong.

pm90 7y ago
If Democracy were to die in HK, I think it’s better for it to die this way rather than a silent squeal like what has happened here in America. The executive runs roughshod ignoring laws and subpoenas, the idiot President openly invites foreign assistance to win elections and not a single protest among over 300 million so called Patriotic Americans.
- kazagistar 7y ago
  It died with Citizens United, and everything since then from Democrats and Republicans is just parts of the game of keeping the masses content while selling out to the oligarchs. If you didn't notice til Trump, you weren't paying attention. But it's still nothing compared to the Hong Kong situation, so there is that I guess.
- kmonsen 7y ago
  100% agree. It shocks me a little bit how few protests there are in the US right now.

Mikeb85 7y ago

Police 'violence'? Have they never been to America? Or seen any G8 meeting in Canada or Europe? Talk about propaganda...

huac 7y ago
Yes, Americans are #1 in the world for police violence. And congratulations to us! edit: I earlier said that this was the first time HK used teargas/rubber bullets, which is inaccurate. the important thing is that this is still violence, just because the US beats everyone in terms of sheer scale/frequency/intensity of police violence doesn't mean that this isn't police violence.
- my_username_is_ 7y ago
  Tear gas was definitely used in '14, see this image from the Umbrella Movement protests: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests#/media/File:2014_Hong_Kong_Umbrella_Revolution_as_Police_Attacked_Peaceful_Demonstrators_with_Tear_Gas_%E9%A6%99%E6%B8%AF%E6%B8%A3%E6%89%93%E9%9D%A9%E5%91%BD%E4%B9%8B%E5%92%8C%E5%B9%B3%E6%8A%97%E8%AD%B0%E7%9A%84%E9%A6%99%E6%B8%AF%E4%BA%BA%E6%B0%91%E4%BB%A5%E9%9B%A8%E5%82%98%E5%B0%8D%E6%8A%97%E7%99%BC%E7%A4%BE%E5%82%AC%E6%B7%9A%E5%BD%88%E7%9A%84%E6%B8%AF%E8%AD%A6.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Hong_Kong_protests#/media... Multiple sources also mention rubber bullets being used in '14 as well: https://www.google.com/search?q=umbrella+revolution+rubber+bullets&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS745US745&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A%2Ccd_max%3A6%2F1%2F2019&tbm= https://www.google.com/search?q=umbrella+revolution+rubber+b...
  - huac 7y ago
    ah, you're right, I misread the SCMP coverage yesterday, guess when they said "tear gas was used for the first time" that it was the first time ever, and not just within the protests this time. the NYT article also has: "The use of rubber bullets represented a turning point in the police response and was the first time the government acknowledged using the nonlethal rounds in Hong Kong in decades. The police response following the protesters’ push toward the Legislative Council was noticeably more aggressive as peaceful protests became more pitched throughout the day." So maybe the use of force hasn't changed vs 2014, but the government's brazenness has.

pastyboy 7y ago

We trade with China so readily without even a thought of the kind of dark totalitarian regime reigns, anything for profit right ? Feel very sorry for the HK citizens but there is nothing the UK can do, HK being returned to China was seen as part of the end of UK influence which (people wanted?), meaning we have 0 influence now. However being under the sphere of China's political surveillance system is clearly not what anybody wanted. I noted with interest how citizens binned all digital methods of payment and comms to avoid be prosecuted for being at the demonstrations retrospectively and presumably extradited to some prison factory in China if the extradition dictat gets through. Anyway IMHO Trump has inadvertently tried to reset the balance and caused the Chinese alot of problems by starving them of tech know how and trade. But as we know Presidents come and go - Communist China is eternal - they will just wait for the next leader to turn around and sell out everyone.

throwawayctyga3 7y ago
That should be evident by the fact that Saudi Arabia is one of our closest allies.