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If you only use the functionality the target format has (e.g. you want to paint an arrow on a PNG image) then you are actually saving. If you tried to save in a

by Crinus 7y ago

If you only use the functionality the target format has (e.g. you want to paint an arrow on a PNG image) then you are actually saving. If you tried to save in a format that would end up with data loss, GIMP could simply display a dialog warning you about it, like other programs that support saving to several formats of different capabilities do.

zrobotics 7y ago
This is how every single CAD tool works, XCF isn't intended to be the final output, it is equivalent to a project file. When I finish laying out a pcb, my final output will be the Gerber files I send to my manufacturer, along with the schematic and BOM. If I'm adding an arrow to an image, I don't really care about preserving the separate layer functionality in the final output. I save the XCF, and if I want to change the size/position of the arrow, I will reopen the xcf file and all my edit history is preserved, along with the arrow on a separate layer that is easy to manipulate. My final output will be the png, which will end up on a web page or in some pdf document. How is it easier for users to have to fight through warning dialogs to find the "correct" image format? If I need a bitmap for some reason, then I know all my layers will get merged. Think of xcf as the gimp project format, similar to source code, and the exported final image as a compiled binary.
- Crinus 7y ago
  I don't know about CAD, but this is not how many applications that save to multiple formats work - including image editors, as i point out in another reply of mine here where i list image editors that put the supported formats in their Save dialog instead of Export (some do not even have such a thing). GIMP's workflow and what you describe assume you work primarily with XCF files but this is not always (or even often, for many people) the case when working with images as nothing else supports XCF files. Personally i rarely work with XCF files and only do that if i want to save images with multiple layers, otherwise i prefer to save in PNG files as those files will be editable in pretty much everything out there. For that sort of workflow GIMP's insistence on separating Save and Export is annoying, especially when i want to create a new image and GIMP complains that i didn't save it (but i did, i just saved it as a PNG file instead of the XFC GIMP wants me to use - that i have no real use for).
  - seba_dos1 7y ago
    GIMP's current behaviour is simply better. Period. It accurately represents what happens and doesn't let the misconceptions bite you. What you're describing is just a minor annoyance (actually, I don't even think it is in any way annoying - I'm a long time GIMP user from before that change, I use it both for creating complicated xcfs and for simple edition of pngs and I just do the right thing without even thinking about it) To be honest, I wish some other apps that have to deal with multiple formats worked this way too.
    - Crinus 7y ago
      > GIMP's current behaviour is simply better. Period. This is subjective, i do not find it better. "Period." > doesn't let the misconceptions bite you There are no misconceptions. I create a blank image, paint an arrow in there, want to save it as a PNG file so others can see it. GIMP complains when i try to exit because i didn't save the image. But i did, i just didn't use GIMP's proprietary file format that GIMP developers want to push. > What you're describing is just a minor annoyance Yes it is, i still use GIMP after all despite it. I am merely describing why i see it as an annoyance. Something being a minor annoyance doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, after all.
      - seba_dos1 7y ago
        You create a project, paint an arrow in its image and then export the project to a flattened PNG file. GIMP rightfully complains when you try to exit because you didn't save the project. There's no format-pushing agenda behind it (like, WTF would that even want to achieve?), it's just common sense. Basically, you're angry because GIMP doesn't optimize its UI for MS Paint use-cases. Trading "slightly better for basic usage" with "significantly worse for any other usage" is a bad idea for a software aspiring to be a professional utility.
      - MildlySerious 7y ago
        > i just didn't use GIMP's proprietary file format that GIMP developers want to push. This is completely misrepresenting and misunderstanding what this file format even is. You might as well complain that saved games are not compatible between Age of Empires and Pokemon. If existing formats don't support the complexity that software like GIMP requires to save a given state, then it has to fall back to a custom format. The only alternative that comes to mind is using .psd, which clearly wouldn't solve your problem since it is actually a proprietary format. As for this "agenda" to push some proprietary format, this excerpt from Wikipedia might clear things up: "A collaborative effort between the developers of GIMP and Krita is underway to design a raster file format called OpenRaster, modelled on the OpenDocument format, for use in both applications in a future version."[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XCF_(file_format) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XCF_(file_format)

by Crinus 7y ago

zrobotics 7y ago

This is how every single CAD tool works, XCF isn't intended to be the final output, it is equivalent to a project file. When I finish laying out a pcb, my final output will be the Gerber files I send to my manufacturer, along with the schematic and BOM. If I'm adding an arrow to an image, I don't really care about preserving the separate layer functionality in the final output. I save the XCF, and if I want to change the size/position of the arrow, I will reopen the xcf file and all my edit history is preserved, along with the arrow on a separate layer that is easy to manipulate. My final output will be the png, which will end up on a web page or in some pdf document. How is it easier for users to have to fight through warning dialogs to find the "correct" image format? If I need a bitmap for some reason, then I know all my layers will get merged. Think of xcf as the gimp project format, similar to source code, and the exported final image as a compiled binary.

Crinus 7y ago
I don't know about CAD, but this is not how many applications that save to multiple formats work - including image editors, as i point out in another reply of mine here where i list image editors that put the supported formats in their Save dialog instead of Export (some do not even have such a thing). GIMP's workflow and what you describe assume you work primarily with XCF files but this is not always (or even often, for many people) the case when working with images as nothing else supports XCF files. Personally i rarely work with XCF files and only do that if i want to save images with multiple layers, otherwise i prefer to save in PNG files as those files will be editable in pretty much everything out there. For that sort of workflow GIMP's insistence on separating Save and Export is annoying, especially when i want to create a new image and GIMP complains that i didn't save it (but i did, i just saved it as a PNG file instead of the XFC GIMP wants me to use - that i have no real use for).
- seba_dos1 7y ago
  GIMP's current behaviour is simply better. Period. It accurately represents what happens and doesn't let the misconceptions bite you. What you're describing is just a minor annoyance (actually, I don't even think it is in any way annoying - I'm a long time GIMP user from before that change, I use it both for creating complicated xcfs and for simple edition of pngs and I just do the right thing without even thinking about it) To be honest, I wish some other apps that have to deal with multiple formats worked this way too.
  - Crinus 7y ago
    > GIMP's current behaviour is simply better. Period. This is subjective, i do not find it better. "Period." > doesn't let the misconceptions bite you There are no misconceptions. I create a blank image, paint an arrow in there, want to save it as a PNG file so others can see it. GIMP complains when i try to exit because i didn't save the image. But i did, i just didn't use GIMP's proprietary file format that GIMP developers want to push. > What you're describing is just a minor annoyance Yes it is, i still use GIMP after all despite it. I am merely describing why i see it as an annoyance. Something being a minor annoyance doesn't mean it doesn't exist at all, after all.
    - seba_dos1 7y ago
      You create a project, paint an arrow in its image and then export the project to a flattened PNG file. GIMP rightfully complains when you try to exit because you didn't save the project. There's no format-pushing agenda behind it (like, WTF would that even want to achieve?), it's just common sense. Basically, you're angry because GIMP doesn't optimize its UI for MS Paint use-cases. Trading "slightly better for basic usage" with "significantly worse for any other usage" is a bad idea for a software aspiring to be a professional utility.
    - MildlySerious 7y ago
      > i just didn't use GIMP's proprietary file format that GIMP developers want to push. This is completely misrepresenting and misunderstanding what this file format even is. You might as well complain that saved games are not compatible between Age of Empires and Pokemon. If existing formats don't support the complexity that software like GIMP requires to save a given state, then it has to fall back to a custom format. The only alternative that comes to mind is using .psd, which clearly wouldn't solve your problem since it is actually a proprietary format. As for this "agenda" to push some proprietary format, this excerpt from Wikipedia might clear things up: "A collaborative effort between the developers of GIMP and Krita is underway to design a raster file format called OpenRaster, modelled on the OpenDocument format, for use in both applications in a future version."[1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XCF_(file_format) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XCF_(file_format)