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> This was a stupid change that added absolutely nothing of value, introduced unnecessary UI complexity and the only reason the GIMP developers did not revert d

> This was a stupid change that added absolutely nothing of value, introduced unnecessary UI complexity and the only reason the GIMP developers did not revert despite all the users requesting it is arrogance as they believe to know better than their own users (which is to be expected by anything related GNOME - see the file dialog woes). I can imagine that they made the change due to many beginners being confused about having lost editing capabilities by storing their work as a png. The developers probably spend quite some time on the fora where users report these kinds of questions, so I don't think it is all that arrogant of them to believe that they know what causes confusion and what doesn't. Thinking that as a single user you are more knowledgeable on what is better for the over all ux than the actual developers, that I do think could be seen a little bit arrogant.

Crinus 7y ago
This can be solved in the same way other applications that can save to multiple formats solve it: if you only use the functionality the target format supports, saving works transparently (so, e.g., you can create an image, draw an arrow and save it as a PNG). If you try to use functionality that the target format doesn't support (e.g. layers on PNG) then GIMP should display a warning dialog about it, perhaps with an option to save as a XCF instead (but not default on it). This has two additional benefits: 1. the beginner will stop be a beginner at some point, will be informed about the target format they are trying to use and will know how to save, save as, etc so this issue will stop be a problem for them and 2. it will get rid of the useless and annoying "do you want to save" warning whenever you want to create a non-XCF image file (because you already saved with "Export", you just didn't save the image as an XCF). The current approach makes the (wrong) assumption that everyone works with XCF files and only exports to other formats. This might be true for some cases, but a lot of people want to work with other formats directly.
- pessimizer 7y ago
  > a lot of people want to work with other formats directly. I'm not even sure what this even means. No matter what file you're editing, you're converting it to a gimp internal format when you open it, you're working with it in a gimp internal format, then if you "save" it back to the format the image started in, what you're saving is a conversion from the gimp internal format. The UI makes that clear. What people are arguing for is to make the UI less clear, not to change anything technical.
  - Crinus 7y ago
    It means opening PNG files, saving PNG files, creating PNG files, etc without seeing XCF at any point (except perhaps if you try to use a feature - like layers - not supported by PNG when saving and GIMP showing a dialog to warn you about it). Replace PNG with any other file format (outside of XCF, of course). The technical side is irrelevant, i am talking about the UI and its behavior here, not how it could be implemented.
- prokoudine 7y ago
  GIMP before version 2.8: yell at users that layers will be lost when saving to JPG/PNG/TIFF etc. Actual result: people lost data. GIMP since version 2.8: only allow exporting to JPG/PNG/TIFF etc., warn if data wasn't saved. Actual results: only a few cases of lost data. We did the math. Now you do yours :)
  - Crinus 7y ago
    Unless you have observed all users then you are pulling the "people lost data" out of thin air. Here is something that actually happens since version 2.8: if you do not treat XCF files as the master image file format, GIMP complains all the time.
    - prokoudine 7y ago
      Oh yeah, I've been pulling that "out of thin air" for, ugh, 7 years now. That's 7 years of actual user support, every day. I'd like to see you prove me wrong.
- Grue3 7y ago
  >If you try to use functionality that the target format doesn't support (e.g. layers on PNG) then GIMP should display a warning dialog about it, perhaps with an option to save as a XCF instead (but not default on it). That's way more annoying than the current GIMP implementation. I sometimes export the same image a lot of times (to work on reducing gif file size etc.) It's very convenient that I can have a master XCF copy and one-click export without any additional dialogs. Also JPG is a lossy format, so it doesn't support even saving a one-layer file correctly. Do you really want a supposed "photo editor" to warn people every time they export to JPG?

Crinus 7y ago

This can be solved in the same way other applications that can save to multiple formats solve it: if you only use the functionality the target format supports, saving works transparently (so, e.g., you can create an image, draw an arrow and save it as a PNG). If you try to use functionality that the target format doesn't support (e.g. layers on PNG) then GIMP should display a warning dialog about it, perhaps with an option to save as a XCF instead (but not default on it). This has two additional benefits: 1. the beginner will stop be a beginner at some point, will be informed about the target format they are trying to use and will know how to save, save as, etc so this issue will stop be a problem for them and 2. it will get rid of the useless and annoying "do you want to save" warning whenever you want to create a non-XCF image file (because you already saved with "Export", you just didn't save the image as an XCF). The current approach makes the (wrong) assumption that everyone works with XCF files and only exports to other formats. This might be true for some cases, but a lot of people want to work with other formats directly.

pessimizer 7y ago
> a lot of people want to work with other formats directly. I'm not even sure what this even means. No matter what file you're editing, you're converting it to a gimp internal format when you open it, you're working with it in a gimp internal format, then if you "save" it back to the format the image started in, what you're saving is a conversion from the gimp internal format. The UI makes that clear. What people are arguing for is to make the UI less clear, not to change anything technical.
- Crinus 7y ago
  It means opening PNG files, saving PNG files, creating PNG files, etc without seeing XCF at any point (except perhaps if you try to use a feature - like layers - not supported by PNG when saving and GIMP showing a dialog to warn you about it). Replace PNG with any other file format (outside of XCF, of course). The technical side is irrelevant, i am talking about the UI and its behavior here, not how it could be implemented.
prokoudine 7y ago
GIMP before version 2.8: yell at users that layers will be lost when saving to JPG/PNG/TIFF etc. Actual result: people lost data. GIMP since version 2.8: only allow exporting to JPG/PNG/TIFF etc., warn if data wasn't saved. Actual results: only a few cases of lost data. We did the math. Now you do yours :)
- Crinus 7y ago
  Unless you have observed all users then you are pulling the "people lost data" out of thin air. Here is something that actually happens since version 2.8: if you do not treat XCF files as the master image file format, GIMP complains all the time.
  - prokoudine 7y ago
    Oh yeah, I've been pulling that "out of thin air" for, ugh, 7 years now. That's 7 years of actual user support, every day. I'd like to see you prove me wrong.
Grue3 7y ago
>If you try to use functionality that the target format doesn't support (e.g. layers on PNG) then GIMP should display a warning dialog about it, perhaps with an option to save as a XCF instead (but not default on it). That's way more annoying than the current GIMP implementation. I sometimes export the same image a lot of times (to work on reducing gif file size etc.) It's very convenient that I can have a master XCF copy and one-click export without any additional dialogs. Also JPG is a lossy format, so it doesn't support even saving a one-layer file correctly. Do you really want a supposed "photo editor" to warn people every time they export to JPG?