5 ms·

Before some western-media starts their well known statement like "India is a poor country and they need to focus on their healthcare, education etc before wasti

by giis 7y ago

Before some western-media starts their well known statement like "India is a poor country and they need to focus on their healthcare, education etc before wasting money on Space projects like this". They need to examine themselves, "Have we ever said above statement when our country lobbying for multi-million/billion dollar defence deals from India?"

tehlike 7y ago
http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/08/why-explore-space.html?m=1 http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/08/why-explore-space.html?... Reminds me of this letter, from Dr. Ernst Stuhlinger to a nun with similar question.
patatino 7y ago
You could just adopt that statement to our western problems. "We should focus on depression, loneliness and providing for veterans before wasting money on space projects like this".
- sn41 7y ago
  I like to think: "We should focus on depression, loneliness and providing for veterans while also investing money on space projects like this".
  - patatino 7y ago
    I also think that's the right approach.
- dvdbloc 7y ago
  I think you could argue we need to focus on our healthcare and education as well
- baroffoos 7y ago
  .
  - killjoywashere 7y ago
    GPS was developed by the military for missiles and jets, operated by the Air Force, although the time reference is provided by the US Naval Observatory (as I recall). The intensely visceral nature of defense tends to motivate some exceptionally creative thinking. Primary research may have been done a long time ago, but early applications are often first recognized and funded by the DoD. The Hubble is essentially a Keyhole satellite turned 180 degrees. A non-trivial number of the US weather satellites are in place to secure US ships and aircraft ahead of significant weather events. E.g. the DMSP is operated by the Air Force (1). The DoD has a $70B research budget and spends over $1B annually on medical research alone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Meteorological_Satellite_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Meteorological_Satelli...
    - rohan1024 7y ago
      I don't understand why are you replying to a dot? Or OP edited the comment?
      - killjoywashere 7y ago
        op edited.
      - baroffoos 7y ago
        I realized my comment was factually wrong but HN doesn't allow deleting, only editing.
        rohan1024 7y ago
        I thought editing was impossible on HN once someone has replied. Seems it is Karma dependent.
        thinkingemote 7y ago
        Nope just a window of time
frittig 7y ago
Caring for the defense of your country is a top priority, above even education. Placing a flag on the moon is a much lower priority. If they only have enough money for some of those things, then caring for the defense and health care should be done before spending money on a symbolic flag planting
- diveanon 7y ago
  I disagree, a moon landing would be a signal to Indians and the rest of the world that India can compete on the highest technical level. I think it would go a long way towards abolishing the notion that the Indian tech community is a budget option lacking in quality. I wish them the best of luck and look forward to seeing the results.
  - sssk 7y ago
    Actually, the Indian Moon Mission is more than just a moon landing. It'll be the first time that any vehicle lands on the south polar region of the Moon. Find out more here on the scientific objectives for the mission - https://www.isro.gov.in/chandrayaan2-mission https://www.isro.gov.in/chandrayaan2-mission
    - diveanon 7y ago
      I've been reading up on it more since commenting. I'm really impressed by the ambitiousness of the project. I am excited to hear that they plan on sending people soon.
      - satyenr 7y ago
        https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Human_Spaceflight_Programme https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Human_Spaceflight_Pro...
    - topioca 7y ago
      Chinese have already landed on far side of the moon with their Chang'e 4 [0] mission. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang%27e_4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang%27e_4
nilsocket 7y ago
Obviously, we have many problems. Solving one problem after other doesn't work in real-life. Things should be handled simultaneously. Coming to defense, If you look through the Indian history, It is one of the most exploited country for several different reasons. Considering our huge population, we are in short of defense equipment from very long time, until many years we don't have money to buy. Different branches of defense were requesting government for equipment from so many years. Now NDA government is buying. If whole world is one country, obviously it would have been a much better place to live, but what we have is what we have. We have disputes with Pakistan, China. China is extending their defense around Indian borders. In-case China attacks India, then we should be sustainable enough to at-least defend the attack. Edit: India uses ~2.4% of GDP, which is similar to many other countries.
melling 7y ago
People seem to ignore the benefits of national goals like the space race. Look at the surge in Physics PhD’s during the Apollo program: https://www.aps.org/careers/statistics/upload/trends-phd0214.pdf https://www.aps.org/careers/statistics/upload/trends-phd0214... “I want to grow up and work for NASA, be an astronaut, etc” can give people the desire to work harder on their education. There’s a halo effect.
- thewhitetulip 7y ago
  Not to mention that when you have your own satellites then it helps in a lot of things as opposed to relying on other's satellites
JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> Before some western-media starts their well known statement like This is a straw man. Nobody is saying this except people in India. At least not to any greater frequency than Western space programs are questioned domestically.
- msravi 7y ago
  You're kidding, right? Here's a sample back from Nov-13 when India launched the Mars orbiter: This is The Guardian saying: "Such expenditure is, however, controversial, with some questioning whether India, where more than 40% of children are malnourished and half the population have no toilets, can afford the mission." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/04/india-mars-probe-launch-space https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/04/india-mars-pro... Here's the Financial Times saying "India’s Mars ‘fantasy’ defies earthly woes": https://www.ft.com/content/235c487a-dd52-11e1-8fdc-00144feab49a https://www.ft.com/content/235c487a-dd52-11e1-8fdc-00144feab... Here's another from a publication I hadn't really heard of: https://guardianlv.com/2013/11/india-mars-mission-to-launch-amidst-overwhelming-poverty/ https://guardianlv.com/2013/11/india-mars-mission-to-launch-... Here's The Economist hiding it under a thin veneer of appearing to justify the expenditure: "Some launches may be mere vanity projects, but satellites can have real benefits too" https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2013/11/04/how-can-poor-countries-afford-space-programmes https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2013/11/04/... Here CNN doesn't use "poverty" but calls it an "escalation in Asia's space race" https://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/04/world/asia/india-mars-space-race/ https://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/04/world/asia/india-mars-spa... But it isn't just the western media. It's actually just the left, everywhere. Even in India. Like this: https://zeenews.india.com/news/space/amidst-euphoria-some-voices-question-cost-of-mars-mission_888098.html https://zeenews.india.com/news/space/amidst-euphoria-some-vo...
  - throwaway-hn123 7y ago
    I guess the rest of the world understands that this is a Modi-driven vanity project. Easier to generate some press than actually do something about poverty. Oh well, complicit people like yourself will make sure his plan works, beti.
dev_north_east 7y ago
I have no problem with India doing whatever it wants and prioritising certain things above others. I do object to my taxes funding foreign aid to a country that have a well developed nuke program, a big military and a burgeoning space industry. Good for them but not with my money thanks.
- inapis 7y ago
  Don't fret. Foreign aid to India is rapidly declining. In fact, for the past 3 years India has been a net donor of aid than a receiver[1]. Total US Aid to India is also rapidly declining on a year-on-year basis. $180M in 2016, $102M in 2017, $85M in 2018, $30M (so far) in 2019.[2] [1] http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2017/mar/22/emerging-power-india-gives-more-aid-than-it-receives-1584604.html http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2017/mar/22/emerging-... [2] https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/IND?fiscal_year=2019&measure=Obligations https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/IND?fiscal_year=2019&measure=O...
- 4BxHkLgUVBG 7y ago
  True, but aids are used to project soft power and also to get lucrative defense deals with India and which USA did get billions so that tone really is unwarranted
  - dev_north_east 7y ago
    I don't live in the US.
- Tepix 7y ago
  If a poor country spends all its money feeding its citizens chances are it will stay poor. If they invest in the future chances are there will be better jobs in the future and less hungry people.
  - dev_north_east 7y ago
    Yeah I don't see what that has to do with my comment. I don't want my taxes sent to subsidise their space industry, nuke program or military. Not a big ask really.

by giis 7y ago

tehlike 7y ago

http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/08/why-explore-space.html?m=1 http://www.lettersofnote.com/2012/08/why-explore-space.html?... Reminds me of this letter, from Dr. Ernst Stuhlinger to a nun with similar question.

patatino 7y ago

You could just adopt that statement to our western problems. "We should focus on depression, loneliness and providing for veterans before wasting money on space projects like this".

sn41 7y ago
I like to think: "We should focus on depression, loneliness and providing for veterans while also investing money on space projects like this".
- patatino 7y ago
  I also think that's the right approach.
dvdbloc 7y ago
I think you could argue we need to focus on our healthcare and education as well
baroffoos 7y ago
.
- killjoywashere 7y ago
  GPS was developed by the military for missiles and jets, operated by the Air Force, although the time reference is provided by the US Naval Observatory (as I recall). The intensely visceral nature of defense tends to motivate some exceptionally creative thinking. Primary research may have been done a long time ago, but early applications are often first recognized and funded by the DoD. The Hubble is essentially a Keyhole satellite turned 180 degrees. A non-trivial number of the US weather satellites are in place to secure US ships and aircraft ahead of significant weather events. E.g. the DMSP is operated by the Air Force (1). The DoD has a $70B research budget and spends over $1B annually on medical research alone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Meteorological_Satellite_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_Meteorological_Satelli...
  - rohan1024 7y ago
    I don't understand why are you replying to a dot? Or OP edited the comment?
    - killjoywashere 7y ago
      op edited.
    - baroffoos 7y ago
      I realized my comment was factually wrong but HN doesn't allow deleting, only editing.
      - rohan1024 7y ago
        I thought editing was impossible on HN once someone has replied. Seems it is Karma dependent.
        thinkingemote 7y ago
        Nope just a window of time

frittig 7y ago

Caring for the defense of your country is a top priority, above even education. Placing a flag on the moon is a much lower priority. If they only have enough money for some of those things, then caring for the defense and health care should be done before spending money on a symbolic flag planting

diveanon 7y ago
I disagree, a moon landing would be a signal to Indians and the rest of the world that India can compete on the highest technical level. I think it would go a long way towards abolishing the notion that the Indian tech community is a budget option lacking in quality. I wish them the best of luck and look forward to seeing the results.
- sssk 7y ago
  Actually, the Indian Moon Mission is more than just a moon landing. It'll be the first time that any vehicle lands on the south polar region of the Moon. Find out more here on the scientific objectives for the mission - https://www.isro.gov.in/chandrayaan2-mission https://www.isro.gov.in/chandrayaan2-mission
  - diveanon 7y ago
    I've been reading up on it more since commenting. I'm really impressed by the ambitiousness of the project. I am excited to hear that they plan on sending people soon.
    - satyenr 7y ago
      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Human_Spaceflight_Programme https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Human_Spaceflight_Pro...
  - topioca 7y ago
    Chinese have already landed on far side of the moon with their Chang'e 4 [0] mission. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang%27e_4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chang%27e_4

nilsocket 7y ago

Obviously, we have many problems. Solving one problem after other doesn't work in real-life. Things should be handled simultaneously. Coming to defense, If you look through the Indian history, It is one of the most exploited country for several different reasons. Considering our huge population, we are in short of defense equipment from very long time, until many years we don't have money to buy. Different branches of defense were requesting government for equipment from so many years. Now NDA government is buying. If whole world is one country, obviously it would have been a much better place to live, but what we have is what we have. We have disputes with Pakistan, China. China is extending their defense around Indian borders. In-case China attacks India, then we should be sustainable enough to at-least defend the attack. Edit: India uses ~2.4% of GDP, which is similar to many other countries.

melling 7y ago

People seem to ignore the benefits of national goals like the space race. Look at the surge in Physics PhD’s during the Apollo program: https://www.aps.org/careers/statistics/upload/trends-phd0214.pdf https://www.aps.org/careers/statistics/upload/trends-phd0214... “I want to grow up and work for NASA, be an astronaut, etc” can give people the desire to work harder on their education. There’s a halo effect.

thewhitetulip 7y ago
Not to mention that when you have your own satellites then it helps in a lot of things as opposed to relying on other's satellites

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

> Before some western-media starts their well known statement like This is a straw man. Nobody is saying this except people in India. At least not to any greater frequency than Western space programs are questioned domestically.

msravi 7y ago
You're kidding, right? Here's a sample back from Nov-13 when India launched the Mars orbiter: This is The Guardian saying: "Such expenditure is, however, controversial, with some questioning whether India, where more than 40% of children are malnourished and half the population have no toilets, can afford the mission." https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/04/india-mars-probe-launch-space https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/04/india-mars-pro... Here's the Financial Times saying "India’s Mars ‘fantasy’ defies earthly woes": https://www.ft.com/content/235c487a-dd52-11e1-8fdc-00144feab49a https://www.ft.com/content/235c487a-dd52-11e1-8fdc-00144feab... Here's another from a publication I hadn't really heard of: https://guardianlv.com/2013/11/india-mars-mission-to-launch-amidst-overwhelming-poverty/ https://guardianlv.com/2013/11/india-mars-mission-to-launch-... Here's The Economist hiding it under a thin veneer of appearing to justify the expenditure: "Some launches may be mere vanity projects, but satellites can have real benefits too" https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2013/11/04/how-can-poor-countries-afford-space-programmes https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2013/11/04/... Here CNN doesn't use "poverty" but calls it an "escalation in Asia's space race" https://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/04/world/asia/india-mars-space-race/ https://edition.cnn.com/2013/11/04/world/asia/india-mars-spa... But it isn't just the western media. It's actually just the left, everywhere. Even in India. Like this: https://zeenews.india.com/news/space/amidst-euphoria-some-voices-question-cost-of-mars-mission_888098.html https://zeenews.india.com/news/space/amidst-euphoria-some-vo...
- throwaway-hn123 7y ago
  I guess the rest of the world understands that this is a Modi-driven vanity project. Easier to generate some press than actually do something about poverty. Oh well, complicit people like yourself will make sure his plan works, beti.

dev_north_east 7y ago

I have no problem with India doing whatever it wants and prioritising certain things above others. I do object to my taxes funding foreign aid to a country that have a well developed nuke program, a big military and a burgeoning space industry. Good for them but not with my money thanks.

inapis 7y ago
Don't fret. Foreign aid to India is rapidly declining. In fact, for the past 3 years India has been a net donor of aid than a receiver[1]. Total US Aid to India is also rapidly declining on a year-on-year basis. $180M in 2016, $102M in 2017, $85M in 2018, $30M (so far) in 2019.[2] [1] http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2017/mar/22/emerging-power-india-gives-more-aid-than-it-receives-1584604.html http://www.newindianexpress.com/nation/2017/mar/22/emerging-... [2] https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/IND?fiscal_year=2019&measure=Obligations https://explorer.usaid.gov/cd/IND?fiscal_year=2019&measure=O...
4BxHkLgUVBG 7y ago
True, but aids are used to project soft power and also to get lucrative defense deals with India and which USA did get billions so that tone really is unwarranted
- dev_north_east 7y ago
  I don't live in the US.
Tepix 7y ago
If a poor country spends all its money feeding its citizens chances are it will stay poor. If they invest in the future chances are there will be better jobs in the future and less hungry people.
- dev_north_east 7y ago
  Yeah I don't see what that has to do with my comment. I don't want my taxes sent to subsidise their space industry, nuke program or military. Not a big ask really.