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> But would the alternative of designing and manufacturing many different aircraft be cheaper? And would it be as effective? Yes. The military has tried the m

> But would the alternative of designing and manufacturing many different aircraft be cheaper? And would it be as effective? Yes. The military has tried the multi service aircraft idea in the past, wasted a lot of money, and failed completely to develop one of the desired variants. That was the F-111, which was supposed to have a Navy and Air Force version. The F-35 was supposed to feature 80% parts commonality between the Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps versions. Instead, it ended up being 20%. With that little parts commonality, the different services should've just developed their own planes. All three services would've ended up with a more capable aircraft for their requirements that wasn't so heavily compromised. And it in all likelihood would have been cheaper. > For it's faults, the F-35 is a weapon that can be configured and deployed at the drop of a hat for just about anything. That's a very powerful capability to have as a defensive and offensive weapon It can fly a multitude of roles but it is not as good at many of them as a more focused aircraft would be. Considering the massive costs it was a bad trade off.

jdietrich 7y ago
See also the disastrous development process of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Fighting_Vehicle#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Fighting_Vehicle#Histo...
scottlocklin 7y ago
The F-111 is the right comparison class. It was supposed to do everything; got relegated to the role every failed airframe does: attack aircraft. Basically a shitty expensive bomber. Just as the F35 is. Dipshit Generals who are bribed with Lockheed jobs afterwords will try to convince you that's really what they wanted; it ain't. It is an egregiously failed weapons system, though an excellent piece of modern political corruption. Yay we have a plane that costs $300 a troy ounce which can be used to blow up cavemen in Afghanistan. Something a cloth winged Sopwith Camel biplane from WW-1 would probably actually be better at; certainly more cost effective. Nerds who are touting this turkey because "woo woo cool half million dollar vidya game helmet" ... y'awl make me want to renounce my citizenship. This turd can be defeated by a Russian tractor mechanic detuning his radar slightly.
- _Codemonkeyism 7y ago
  Exactly, every ground attack air plane from WW2 with added flares would work fine. Some in the Airforce recognized this and it lead to the light-attack aircraft competition. But currently it's stopped, I guess there was not enough money in it and was killed by a competing faction in the Pentagon.
mcv 7y ago
I'm baffled that the largest airforce in the world is so desperate for a jack-of-all-trades aircraft. It makes a lot of sense for a small airforce. The F-16 was incredibly popular with smaller airforces because it could do everything. Never the best at anything, but good enough for a small airforce. But the US can afford specialised aircraft. Betting the house on a jack-of-all-trades means you end up with a master of none. The US should be master of everything, and that means more specialised fighters, bombers, CAS, etc. If the A-10 isn't good enough anymore, by all means design a replacement. But don't expect it to also take of vertically and perform air superiority. Everything comes at a trade-off. Having an airframe designed for VTOL and then use it for planes that don't VTOL is just wasteful.
- GVIrish 7y ago
  > I'm baffled that the largest airforce in the world is so desperate for a jack-of-all-trades aircraft. A big motivation was that developing combat aircraft is stupidly expensive and extremely prone to cost overruns, which then make programs vulnerable to cancellation. So the defense industry and DoD got together to make this project very difficult to cancel. They sold the virtues of cost savings by sharing components, then they staked the future of US and allied air power on this one platform. On top of that they spread the production of the aircraft across FORTY-FIVE states. It is not only the most expensive weapons program in history, it is the most politically engineered. > But the US can afford specialised aircraft. Betting the house on a jack-of-all-trades means you end up with a master of none. The US should be master of everything, and that means more specialised fighters, bombers, CAS, etc. Yes, but one of the critical weaknesses of the US military's philosophy is that if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing. The DoD frequently capitulates to the desire to gold plate weapons systems and change requirements to the point that projects get cancelled. So, the JSF is in a way, a response to that tendency, just the totally wrong one. > If the A-10 isn't good enough anymore, by all means design a replacement. But don't expect it to also take of vertically and perform air superiority. Everything comes at a trade-off. Having an airframe designed for VTOL and then use it for planes that don't VTOL is just wasteful. I think the STOVL requirement is key factor that really effed up the JSF program. And that entire requirement is born out of an irrational institutional fear the Marine Corps has about being left without air support that they harbor from WWII.
jki275 7y ago
The F111 was designed as an Air Force aircraft. period. They later built two prototypes to test for the Navy, decided a common airframe wasn't going to work, and built the F14 using the lessons learned from that development effort instead. The three variant JSFs are essentially three separate aircraft run by one program office. The USAF and USN used a common aircraft in Vietnam to great effect -- the F4. The JSF per aircraft cost is going to be less than the F18 by the time the program is finished.
- GVIrish 7y ago
  > The three variant JSFs are essentially three separate aircraft run by one program office. They're actually shutting down the joint program office because it is now in fact, three separate aircraft. Which again, puts lie to the whole rationale of the program in the first place. > The USAF and USN used a common aircraft in Vietnam to great effect -- the F4. The F4 did decently, and if we use it as a guide, the Air Force and Navy variants should have been their own program, and the USMC should've had a separate airframe to accommodate their STOVL requirement. But that's not what we got, and that STOVL requirement is a large reason the platform has some big fundamental compromises. > The JSF per aircraft cost is going to be less than the F18 by the time the program is finished. People keep promising that, but the DoD and Lockheed keep laying games with how they quote costs in order to make it seem like cost parity is closer than it really is. Flyaway costs for the F-35 keep getting quoted against procurement costs for 4.5 gen aircraft to make the F-35 look better than it is on cost.
  - jki275 7y ago
    The cost actually is. It's not a thought about something in the future, it's a fact. The USMC used the F4 alongside the USN as they always have. USMC aviators are trained as Naval aviators, deploy with USN ships, and support USN missions as part of the CVW. The ARG concept is different, and USMC STOVL fixed wing wasn't a thing in Vietnam. It's a more modern concept. You're projecting things that didn't exist into the past. There are no compromises between the platforms for STOVL -- the JSF-B is a separate aircraft as it has been since the beginning and as you say in the sentence above. JSF-A and JSF-C are different airframes with different requirements and different capabilities.

jdietrich 7y ago

See also the disastrous development process of the Bradley Fighting Vehicle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Fighting_Vehicle#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bradley_Fighting_Vehicle#Histo...

scottlocklin 7y ago

The F-111 is the right comparison class. It was supposed to do everything; got relegated to the role every failed airframe does: attack aircraft. Basically a shitty expensive bomber. Just as the F35 is. Dipshit Generals who are bribed with Lockheed jobs afterwords will try to convince you that's really what they wanted; it ain't. It is an egregiously failed weapons system, though an excellent piece of modern political corruption. Yay we have a plane that costs $300 a troy ounce which can be used to blow up cavemen in Afghanistan. Something a cloth winged Sopwith Camel biplane from WW-1 would probably actually be better at; certainly more cost effective. Nerds who are touting this turkey because "woo woo cool half million dollar vidya game helmet" ... y'awl make me want to renounce my citizenship. This turd can be defeated by a Russian tractor mechanic detuning his radar slightly.

_Codemonkeyism 7y ago
Exactly, every ground attack air plane from WW2 with added flares would work fine. Some in the Airforce recognized this and it lead to the light-attack aircraft competition. But currently it's stopped, I guess there was not enough money in it and was killed by a competing faction in the Pentagon.

mcv 7y ago

I'm baffled that the largest airforce in the world is so desperate for a jack-of-all-trades aircraft. It makes a lot of sense for a small airforce. The F-16 was incredibly popular with smaller airforces because it could do everything. Never the best at anything, but good enough for a small airforce. But the US can afford specialised aircraft. Betting the house on a jack-of-all-trades means you end up with a master of none. The US should be master of everything, and that means more specialised fighters, bombers, CAS, etc. If the A-10 isn't good enough anymore, by all means design a replacement. But don't expect it to also take of vertically and perform air superiority. Everything comes at a trade-off. Having an airframe designed for VTOL and then use it for planes that don't VTOL is just wasteful.

GVIrish 7y ago
> I'm baffled that the largest airforce in the world is so desperate for a jack-of-all-trades aircraft. A big motivation was that developing combat aircraft is stupidly expensive and extremely prone to cost overruns, which then make programs vulnerable to cancellation. So the defense industry and DoD got together to make this project very difficult to cancel. They sold the virtues of cost savings by sharing components, then they staked the future of US and allied air power on this one platform. On top of that they spread the production of the aircraft across FORTY-FIVE states. It is not only the most expensive weapons program in history, it is the most politically engineered. > But the US can afford specialised aircraft. Betting the house on a jack-of-all-trades means you end up with a master of none. The US should be master of everything, and that means more specialised fighters, bombers, CAS, etc. Yes, but one of the critical weaknesses of the US military's philosophy is that if it's worth doing, it's worth overdoing. The DoD frequently capitulates to the desire to gold plate weapons systems and change requirements to the point that projects get cancelled. So, the JSF is in a way, a response to that tendency, just the totally wrong one. > If the A-10 isn't good enough anymore, by all means design a replacement. But don't expect it to also take of vertically and perform air superiority. Everything comes at a trade-off. Having an airframe designed for VTOL and then use it for planes that don't VTOL is just wasteful. I think the STOVL requirement is key factor that really effed up the JSF program. And that entire requirement is born out of an irrational institutional fear the Marine Corps has about being left without air support that they harbor from WWII.

jki275 7y ago

The F111 was designed as an Air Force aircraft. period. They later built two prototypes to test for the Navy, decided a common airframe wasn't going to work, and built the F14 using the lessons learned from that development effort instead. The three variant JSFs are essentially three separate aircraft run by one program office. The USAF and USN used a common aircraft in Vietnam to great effect -- the F4. The JSF per aircraft cost is going to be less than the F18 by the time the program is finished.

GVIrish 7y ago
> The three variant JSFs are essentially three separate aircraft run by one program office. They're actually shutting down the joint program office because it is now in fact, three separate aircraft. Which again, puts lie to the whole rationale of the program in the first place. > The USAF and USN used a common aircraft in Vietnam to great effect -- the F4. The F4 did decently, and if we use it as a guide, the Air Force and Navy variants should have been their own program, and the USMC should've had a separate airframe to accommodate their STOVL requirement. But that's not what we got, and that STOVL requirement is a large reason the platform has some big fundamental compromises. > The JSF per aircraft cost is going to be less than the F18 by the time the program is finished. People keep promising that, but the DoD and Lockheed keep laying games with how they quote costs in order to make it seem like cost parity is closer than it really is. Flyaway costs for the F-35 keep getting quoted against procurement costs for 4.5 gen aircraft to make the F-35 look better than it is on cost.
- jki275 7y ago
  The cost actually is. It's not a thought about something in the future, it's a fact. The USMC used the F4 alongside the USN as they always have. USMC aviators are trained as Naval aviators, deploy with USN ships, and support USN missions as part of the CVW. The ARG concept is different, and USMC STOVL fixed wing wasn't a thing in Vietnam. It's a more modern concept. You're projecting things that didn't exist into the past. There are no compromises between the platforms for STOVL -- the JSF-B is a separate aircraft as it has been since the beginning and as you say in the sentence above. JSF-A and JSF-C are different airframes with different requirements and different capabilities.