7 ms·

> The big selling point of these markets is that you don't have to know anything about your dealer, and they need to know almost nothing about you. Huh? Seller

> The big selling point of these markets is that you don't have to know anything about your dealer, and they need to know almost nothing about you. Huh? Sellers need a physical address. Sure, one can use the address of some senile neighbor, or that of someone on vacation, or an empty house, etc. But I bet that over 90% of buyers use their actual address. I mean, DPR did, when he bought fake ID from SR.

freedomben 7y ago
My thoughts exactly. People still have to provide some address to receive it, and if they are buying from a cop then when the package shows up the cops will be watching and when you grab it, you're busted. Seems like you still need some level of trust, but please correct me if I've got it wrong.
- corndoge 7y ago
  Consider that if I know your address, I can order drugs delivered to you. Then you take the sting. I would think that this factor and the desire to catch the sellers more than the buyers motivates law enforcement to focus on disrupting the chain and tracking down sellers more than pursuing all but the highest volume buyers.
  - millzlane 7y ago
    Also there is plausible deniability. "I don't know why drugs showed up to my house. Look! That's not even my name...clearly a mistake."
    - mirimir 7y ago
      Sure. But they would use your name.
    - freedomben 7y ago
      What if they just record you taking the package, follow you home, get a warrant based on probable cause, and search your house and find the package?
      - mirimir 7y ago
        That's certainly a risk. If you're using a market that's not compromised, you trust sellers' ratings. Sellers who were police honeypots would arguably not have high ratings. Unless, of course, police had created user bot armies. From what I've read, you place a test order, shipped to your third-party address. Relying on tracking information, you anonymously hire someone to "steal" the package, with the contents as part of the payment. To get the rest of the payment, they need to message you anonymously, and you pay well-mixed Bitcoin. You never actually meet them again. If that works out, you place a real order, shipped to the same address. And hire someone else anonymously to "steal" the package, and drop it somewhere for you. And then pay them anonymously, with well-mixed Bitcoin. But it's gotta be a decent payment, comparable to what they could get by selling the contents. Too iffy for me.
        SRTP 7y ago
        define 'well-mixed Bitcoin' please? Is there a threshold that you'd use? How do you judge whether a BTC tx is well-mixed?
        mirimir 7y ago
        Between my meatspace identity and Mirimir, which is my least ~anonymous persona, well-mixed means mixing successively by three different services: A, B and C. I mix via Tor, using Whonix VM instances, and Electrum wallets. So three Whonix/Electrum instances: X, Y and Z. source to X via A A to Y via B B to Z via C Bitcoin in Whonix/Electrum instance Z is available to spend, or transfer to another VM. For transfers among ~anonymous personas, I just mix once or twice, depending on the desired compartmentalization level.
        mirimir 7y ago
    - Obi_Juan_Kenobi 7y ago
      FYI fake names is bad OpSec; it's a great way to get a 'care package', i.e. a controlled delivery. You have just as much plausible deniability with or without a fake name.
      - mirimir 7y ago
        Yeah, the postal system is watching. So you gotta have name and address match. Some post offices won't even deliver to unknown names. And some tiny post offices know every resident, by name. I know, because I've received mail addressed to my name and the five-digit postal code. It was a very small town.
      - rjbwork 7y ago
        That's interesting. I've always used a fake name when conducting P2P transactions online. For instance on RedditGifts, I've always used a fake name. This backfired once when a housemate sent a very expensive chess set sent from Singapore back and the sender never got it. Other than that I've had a good experience.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    That's true, somewhat. If you read the history of the SR1 takedown, you see that the FBI interviewed buyers whose packages had been intercepted by Customs. And from what I've seen, there's no indication that any of them were prosecuted. But on the other hand, someone did have heroin sent to Brian Krebs, and planned to trigger a SWAT upon delivery.[0] It was just luck that he found out about it in advance, and filed a police report. For less clueful victims, it's still arguably a substantial risk. https://krebsonsecurity.com/2015/10/hacker-who-sent-me-heroin-faces-charges-in-u-s/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2015/10/hacker-who-sent-me-heroi...
    - gwern 7y ago
      > If you read the history of the SR1 takedown, you see that the FBI interviewed buyers whose packages had been intercepted by Customs. And from what I've seen, there's no indication that any of them were prosecuted. At least 65 SR1 buyers are known to have been arrested: https://www.gwern.net/DNM-arrests https://www.gwern.net/DNM-arrests
      - mirimir 7y ago
        Wow. Great work! Thanks.
  - ezoe 7y ago
    I really doubt that in a country where Swatting resulting cops killing the innocent and unarmed video game players in their house.
  - Fjolsvith 7y ago
    And, due to the anonymity of the new market, there's no benefit to busting the chain if you bust a buyer. You can't get the buyer to snitch on who their supplier is.
- vageli 7y ago
  > My thoughts exactly. People still have to provide some address to receive it, and if they are buying from a cop then when the package shows up the cops will be watching and when you grab it, you're busted. > Seems like you still need some level of trust, but please correct me if I've got it wrong. Is it illegal to receive drugs if you don't know it's drugs? Is merely bringing a package into your home, without inspecting its contents, illegal?
  - chipperyman573 7y ago
    Probably not but most people who order drugs online will probably use them at some point, it's not like the drugs will remain in a sealed box forever.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    If they bust you with an unopened package, they will try to get you to admit that you ordered it. And here's where it gets tricky. If you ordered from a police honeypot seller, they have some reason to think that you did order. So if you at first deny ordering, and later admit that you did, you've just admitted to lying to them. Penalties for that can be worse than ordering illegal drugs ;)
    - sandworm101 7y ago
      Denial of guilt is not considered lying. Otherwise, every contested guilty verdict would have a perjury charge attached. Just say no. Or say nothing. Or one word: lawyer.
      - onetimemanytime 7y ago
        Say nothing. I think you can stay quiet but if you talk and lie to FBI, you will be Martha Stewart. Totally unrelated to the original case and they can prove this very easily, 2 FBI agents with detailed notes vs you.
  - dillonmckay 7y ago
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwyn_Heights,_Maryland_mayor%27s_residence_drug_raid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwyn_Heights,_Maryland_may...
SomeOldThrow 7y ago
> Sellers need a physical address. Still only circumstantial evidence, you can order drugs to any address you want. Besides, I highly doubt most buyers have enough activity to justify pursuing legal action.
shitlord 7y ago
The seller can also perform a dead drop instead of mailing the package. Although, it seems difficult to do a dead drop in a place like NYC without getting caught on camera.
- michaelt 7y ago
  That, and presumably a seller would be nervous about using a buyer-chosen dead drop, or reusing a dead drop location buyers knew about.

freedomben 7y ago

My thoughts exactly. People still have to provide some address to receive it, and if they are buying from a cop then when the package shows up the cops will be watching and when you grab it, you're busted. Seems like you still need some level of trust, but please correct me if I've got it wrong.

corndoge 7y ago
Consider that if I know your address, I can order drugs delivered to you. Then you take the sting. I would think that this factor and the desire to catch the sellers more than the buyers motivates law enforcement to focus on disrupting the chain and tracking down sellers more than pursuing all but the highest volume buyers.
- millzlane 7y ago
  Also there is plausible deniability. "I don't know why drugs showed up to my house. Look! That's not even my name...clearly a mistake."
  - mirimir 7y ago
    Sure. But they would use your name.
  - freedomben 7y ago
    What if they just record you taking the package, follow you home, get a warrant based on probable cause, and search your house and find the package?
    - mirimir 7y ago
      That's certainly a risk. If you're using a market that's not compromised, you trust sellers' ratings. Sellers who were police honeypots would arguably not have high ratings. Unless, of course, police had created user bot armies. From what I've read, you place a test order, shipped to your third-party address. Relying on tracking information, you anonymously hire someone to "steal" the package, with the contents as part of the payment. To get the rest of the payment, they need to message you anonymously, and you pay well-mixed Bitcoin. You never actually meet them again. If that works out, you place a real order, shipped to the same address. And hire someone else anonymously to "steal" the package, and drop it somewhere for you. And then pay them anonymously, with well-mixed Bitcoin. But it's gotta be a decent payment, comparable to what they could get by selling the contents. Too iffy for me.
      - SRTP 7y ago
        define 'well-mixed Bitcoin' please? Is there a threshold that you'd use? How do you judge whether a BTC tx is well-mixed?
        mirimir 7y ago
        Between my meatspace identity and Mirimir, which is my least ~anonymous persona, well-mixed means mixing successively by three different services: A, B and C. I mix via Tor, using Whonix VM instances, and Electrum wallets. So three Whonix/Electrum instances: X, Y and Z. source to X via A A to Y via B B to Z via C Bitcoin in Whonix/Electrum instance Z is available to spend, or transfer to another VM. For transfers among ~anonymous personas, I just mix once or twice, depending on the desired compartmentalization level.
        mirimir 7y ago
  - Obi_Juan_Kenobi 7y ago
    FYI fake names is bad OpSec; it's a great way to get a 'care package', i.e. a controlled delivery. You have just as much plausible deniability with or without a fake name.
    - mirimir 7y ago
      Yeah, the postal system is watching. So you gotta have name and address match. Some post offices won't even deliver to unknown names. And some tiny post offices know every resident, by name. I know, because I've received mail addressed to my name and the five-digit postal code. It was a very small town.
    - rjbwork 7y ago
      That's interesting. I've always used a fake name when conducting P2P transactions online. For instance on RedditGifts, I've always used a fake name. This backfired once when a housemate sent a very expensive chess set sent from Singapore back and the sender never got it. Other than that I've had a good experience.
- mirimir 7y ago
  That's true, somewhat. If you read the history of the SR1 takedown, you see that the FBI interviewed buyers whose packages had been intercepted by Customs. And from what I've seen, there's no indication that any of them were prosecuted. But on the other hand, someone did have heroin sent to Brian Krebs, and planned to trigger a SWAT upon delivery.[0] It was just luck that he found out about it in advance, and filed a police report. For less clueful victims, it's still arguably a substantial risk. https://krebsonsecurity.com/2015/10/hacker-who-sent-me-heroin-faces-charges-in-u-s/ https://krebsonsecurity.com/2015/10/hacker-who-sent-me-heroi...
  - gwern 7y ago
    > If you read the history of the SR1 takedown, you see that the FBI interviewed buyers whose packages had been intercepted by Customs. And from what I've seen, there's no indication that any of them were prosecuted. At least 65 SR1 buyers are known to have been arrested: https://www.gwern.net/DNM-arrests https://www.gwern.net/DNM-arrests
    - mirimir 7y ago
      Wow. Great work! Thanks.
- ezoe 7y ago
  I really doubt that in a country where Swatting resulting cops killing the innocent and unarmed video game players in their house.
- Fjolsvith 7y ago
  And, due to the anonymity of the new market, there's no benefit to busting the chain if you bust a buyer. You can't get the buyer to snitch on who their supplier is.
vageli 7y ago
> My thoughts exactly. People still have to provide some address to receive it, and if they are buying from a cop then when the package shows up the cops will be watching and when you grab it, you're busted. > Seems like you still need some level of trust, but please correct me if I've got it wrong. Is it illegal to receive drugs if you don't know it's drugs? Is merely bringing a package into your home, without inspecting its contents, illegal?
- chipperyman573 7y ago
  Probably not but most people who order drugs online will probably use them at some point, it's not like the drugs will remain in a sealed box forever.
- mirimir 7y ago
  If they bust you with an unopened package, they will try to get you to admit that you ordered it. And here's where it gets tricky. If you ordered from a police honeypot seller, they have some reason to think that you did order. So if you at first deny ordering, and later admit that you did, you've just admitted to lying to them. Penalties for that can be worse than ordering illegal drugs ;)
  - sandworm101 7y ago
    Denial of guilt is not considered lying. Otherwise, every contested guilty verdict would have a perjury charge attached. Just say no. Or say nothing. Or one word: lawyer.
    - onetimemanytime 7y ago
      Say nothing. I think you can stay quiet but if you talk and lie to FBI, you will be Martha Stewart. Totally unrelated to the original case and they can prove this very easily, 2 FBI agents with detailed notes vs you.
- dillonmckay 7y ago
  https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwyn_Heights,_Maryland_mayor%27s_residence_drug_raid https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berwyn_Heights,_Maryland_may...

SomeOldThrow 7y ago

> Sellers need a physical address. Still only circumstantial evidence, you can order drugs to any address you want. Besides, I highly doubt most buyers have enough activity to justify pursuing legal action.

shitlord 7y ago

The seller can also perform a dead drop instead of mailing the package. Although, it seems difficult to do a dead drop in a place like NYC without getting caught on camera.

michaelt 7y ago
That, and presumably a seller would be nervous about using a buyer-chosen dead drop, or reusing a dead drop location buyers knew about.