5 ms·

Yes. Hence the 'death by a thousand cuts'. We couldn't fight every battle. We lost.

stcredzero 7y ago
Hence the 'death by a thousand cuts'. We couldn't fight every battle. We lost. So does the future belong to those who can administer the "thousand cuts?" In 2019, that means those who own the Cloud server farms and control the organizations that hire hordes of programmers. Does that mean that privacy is dead by an inexorable process? Doesn't that imply that individual liberty is also, eventually, dead? How can we, the people, administer the thousand cuts?
- sbierwagen 7y ago
  >Does that mean that privacy is dead by an inexorable process? Yes. >Doesn't that imply that individual liberty is also, eventually, dead? Yes. >How can we, the people, administer the thousand cuts? Stop carrying a cell phone. There was a brief period of time, from 1990 to 8:40 AM, September 11th, 2001, when you could do all sorts of stuff online, and the powers that be either didn't, or couldn't, monitor it. That's changed, and that freedom will never come back. However, no matter how bad the modern surveillance state gets, contrast it to the ancestral environment: a village of 50 to 200 people, most of whom are related to you, watch your every move, and can determine if you live or die. Hunter gatherers don't even have a word for "privacy". It would take real creativity for things to get that bad today.
  - deogeo 7y ago
    > It would take real creativity for things to get that bad today. It is easily as bad or worse. Those 50-200 people knew and cared for each-other, and depended on each-other, and the surveillance was bidirectional. Whereas now you are monitored by actors almost entirely beyond your reach, that will feel no remorse in crushing you, should the command be given by whoever is in control.
    - kybernetikos 7y ago
      > by whoever is in control. Which may ultimately be a poorly tested, bias-ridden bit of AI code.
      - deogeo 7y ago
        That is why 1984 is such a positive, optimistic work - all the nightmarish oppression worked so well and without bias!
        TeMPOraL 7y ago
        Also, and similarly to where conspiracy theories usually get the world wrong - someone was actually in control. In real life, no one is.
        kybernetikos 7y ago
        Yes. Miserable as oppression is, it's handy if it only hurts you in circumstances that you could predict. Incompetent oppression can get you no matter what measures you think you've taken to live a quiet life. Rather than 1984, the future we need to worry about will probably be more like something from Kafka.
        stcredzero 7y ago
        Miserable as oppression is, it's handy if it only hurts you in circumstances that you could predict. Incompetent oppression can get you no matter what measures you think you've taken to live a quiet life. Rather than 1984, the future we need to worry about will probably be more like something from Kafka. This morning, I learned of a YouTuber with zero strikes, who followed all of the stated rules, who proactively deleted all of his demonetized videos, and yet still had his channel deleted. (1) If you talk to YouTubers, many of them, even mainstream ones, especially successful ones, will tell you that being governed on that platform is indeed Kafkaesque. (1) - Black Pigeon Speaks. All of his opinions that I listened to were trash, but I still think he had the right to express them.
      - 7y ago
  - Mediterraneo10 7y ago
    > There was a brief period of time, from 1990 to 8:40 AM, September 11th, 2001, when you could do all sorts of stuff online, and the powers that be either didn't, or couldn't, monitor it. The belief that September 11 brought in the dark times overlooks the actual history of things. The European Parliament’s ECHELON report, which detailed American massive interception and storage of internet and other electronics communications, was released in 2000. John Young’s website Cryptome was discussing the same stuff pre-9/11 that you found from people like Bruce Schneier afterwards. The revelations may not have been as big in the news like Snowden later, but it was well known that the NSA had rolled out extensive surveillance already by the turn of the millennium.
    - icebraining 7y ago
      Agreed. Duncan Campbell's article "Somebody's Listening" about this is from 1988! http://new.duncan.gn.apc.org/menu/journalism/newstatesman/Somebody's_Listening.pdf http://new.duncan.gn.apc.org/menu/journalism/newstatesman/So...
  - stcredzero 7y ago
    Stop carrying a cell phone. How about stop using the Internet, driving a car, and participating in the economy? I don't think that helps.

Hence the 'death by a thousand cuts'. We couldn't fight every battle. We lost. So does the future belong to those who can administer the "thousand cuts?" In 2019, that means those who own the Cloud server farms and control the organizations that hire hordes of programmers. Does that mean that privacy is dead by an inexorable process? Doesn't that imply that individual liberty is also, eventually, dead? How can we, the people, administer the thousand cuts?

sbierwagen 7y ago
>Does that mean that privacy is dead by an inexorable process? Yes. >Doesn't that imply that individual liberty is also, eventually, dead? Yes. >How can we, the people, administer the thousand cuts? Stop carrying a cell phone. There was a brief period of time, from 1990 to 8:40 AM, September 11th, 2001, when you could do all sorts of stuff online, and the powers that be either didn't, or couldn't, monitor it. That's changed, and that freedom will never come back. However, no matter how bad the modern surveillance state gets, contrast it to the ancestral environment: a village of 50 to 200 people, most of whom are related to you, watch your every move, and can determine if you live or die. Hunter gatherers don't even have a word for "privacy". It would take real creativity for things to get that bad today.
- deogeo 7y ago
  > It would take real creativity for things to get that bad today. It is easily as bad or worse. Those 50-200 people knew and cared for each-other, and depended on each-other, and the surveillance was bidirectional. Whereas now you are monitored by actors almost entirely beyond your reach, that will feel no remorse in crushing you, should the command be given by whoever is in control.
  - kybernetikos 7y ago
    > by whoever is in control. Which may ultimately be a poorly tested, bias-ridden bit of AI code.
    - deogeo 7y ago
      That is why 1984 is such a positive, optimistic work - all the nightmarish oppression worked so well and without bias!
      - TeMPOraL 7y ago
        Also, and similarly to where conspiracy theories usually get the world wrong - someone was actually in control. In real life, no one is.
      - kybernetikos 7y ago
        Yes. Miserable as oppression is, it's handy if it only hurts you in circumstances that you could predict. Incompetent oppression can get you no matter what measures you think you've taken to live a quiet life. Rather than 1984, the future we need to worry about will probably be more like something from Kafka.
        stcredzero 7y ago
        Miserable as oppression is, it's handy if it only hurts you in circumstances that you could predict. Incompetent oppression can get you no matter what measures you think you've taken to live a quiet life. Rather than 1984, the future we need to worry about will probably be more like something from Kafka. This morning, I learned of a YouTuber with zero strikes, who followed all of the stated rules, who proactively deleted all of his demonetized videos, and yet still had his channel deleted. (1) If you talk to YouTubers, many of them, even mainstream ones, especially successful ones, will tell you that being governed on that platform is indeed Kafkaesque. (1) - Black Pigeon Speaks. All of his opinions that I listened to were trash, but I still think he had the right to express them.
    - 7y ago
- Mediterraneo10 7y ago
  > There was a brief period of time, from 1990 to 8:40 AM, September 11th, 2001, when you could do all sorts of stuff online, and the powers that be either didn't, or couldn't, monitor it. The belief that September 11 brought in the dark times overlooks the actual history of things. The European Parliament’s ECHELON report, which detailed American massive interception and storage of internet and other electronics communications, was released in 2000. John Young’s website Cryptome was discussing the same stuff pre-9/11 that you found from people like Bruce Schneier afterwards. The revelations may not have been as big in the news like Snowden later, but it was well known that the NSA had rolled out extensive surveillance already by the turn of the millennium.
  - icebraining 7y ago
    Agreed. Duncan Campbell's article "Somebody's Listening" about this is from 1988! http://new.duncan.gn.apc.org/menu/journalism/newstatesman/Somebody's_Listening.pdf http://new.duncan.gn.apc.org/menu/journalism/newstatesman/So...
- stcredzero 7y ago
  Stop carrying a cell phone. How about stop using the Internet, driving a car, and participating in the economy? I don't think that helps.