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I am not convinced any of them need k8s or even containers. I am convinced many people use these technologies because it is simple and abstracts away the requi

by geggam 7y ago

I am not convinced any of them need k8s or even containers. I am convinced many people use these technologies because it is simple and abstracts away the required skill sets to do complex operational tasks but only covers about 85% of those, leaving operation teams with limited skill sets exposed when that other 15% happens.

StreamBright 7y ago
Same here. I do devops for 10 years (used to be called systems engineering) and have implemented containers once and Kubernetes zero times. I successfully made companies avoid Kubernetes several times. Most of the time tool focused people think that the next thing is a miracle that makes every problem go away, which is certainly not true. If you define the problems first and try to find solutions than you get much better results. Choosing a tool and try to find problems it solves is idiotic. Just like using Kubernetes instead of something much simpler.
- zaphirplane 7y ago
  Don’t have a dog in this fight , how do you handle container migration on host failure
  - StreamBright 7y ago
    You are implying that we need container migration. I give you one example of how you do not need that. Let's set up an autoscaling group with node count = 10. On node error you terminate the node in trouble. Autoscaling detects that you have less capacity than required. Creates a new instance. You are good. This is a much simpler solution to the problem than trying to think where you container fits, avoiding cascading problems and trying to track the state of your cluster.
    - cookiecaper 7y ago
      And to be clear, "container migration" is nothing more advanced than this "take the failed system out of service and spawn it somewhere else" routine that we've been doing since time immemorial. Things like VMware's vMotion or KVM's live migration can detect trouble and transparently move the running VM -- network connections, memory state, and all -- onto a different underlying host, leaving end users none the wiser. That's the kind of thing noobs throw out the window when they come in fired up about how k8s have health checks, because they've never heard of health checks before. People are trying to recreate container-level mobility with things like CRI-U, which is very cool, very cutting edge stuff, but right now it's so unpredictable even the k8s crowd is afraid to touch it. ;) Once these things eventually pan out and the functionality gets tangled up into some contrived k8s-ified YAML abomination (aka "blessed by the Great Googly Appendage"), when the k8s fanboys start hailing it as the savior of all computerdom, I'm sure I'll be making posts like "Uh, hi, this is awesome tech, but live migration anyone? We've had this for a long time..." CRI-U has the potential to open many doors, and while true live container migration may be one of them, it's not really the exciting one, primarily because we've already had fatter-but-functionally-similar support for server workloads through VM migration/snapshots. CRI-U's promise is in all the things we can do with process-level "save states" that aren't just "moving 300MB of RAM at a time instead of 8G".
    - zaphirplane 7y ago
      The general question is how do you handle host failure in a container world without k8s I think are answering how to do it in k8s. As an aside your answer works for stateless workloads not for stateful
FridgeSeal 7y ago
I’m sure the team I’m in (10 total, of which none of us are “devils”, and only half are devs) could probably do our stuff without containers and Kubernetes, but honestly, the fact that I can make a commit to a repo, and in a couple of minutes the latest version of my code and dependencies is up and running, with things like SSL certs, DNS records and domain names sorted, all logging is sorted (I don’t have to worry about logging libs and connections to logging services, I just write to the console and it’s all collected and indexed in ElasticSearch; if my service goes down Kubernetes brings it right back up in a matter of moments, I don’t have to provision anything, underlying instances are automatically replaced if they fail, and resource requirements are automatically handled, as is horizontal scaling. So, so, so much is done (near) out of the box that we don’t need to worry about, it’s amazing. I’m sure there’s a pre-Kubernetes way of doing it, but I don’t imagine it’s nearly as low friction. When that 15% occurrence happens, community forums exist, failing that, we pay for great support from our cloud provider, and absolutely worst comes to worst, we can just blow away the whole thing and redeploy because our whole environment is setup so that you can go from blank slate to apps running production again in just under an hour.
- geggam 7y ago
  Ideally your automation and everything else is done so you have a reproducible environment. If that is the case and you recreate the environment when you run into that 15% problem you should be recreating the problem. Yes there were methods of doing the same thing pre containers. smoother and simpler IMO Simplest was the ship everything in a tarball using embedded deps so everything was inclusive. Production was pointed to the latest release via a link. New release was done and you simply changed the link. Rollback was as simple as changing the link back to the previous version.
- cookiecaper 7y ago
  > So, so, so much is done (near) out of the box that we don’t need to worry about, it’s amazing. I’m sure there’s a pre-Kubernetes way of doing it, but I don’t imagine it’s nearly as low friction. My suggestion would be that you not rely on your imagination, but actually look into some non-k8s options. NixOps is a good place to start. You'll be pleasantly surprised how much simpler it can be, and may even get an improved emotional connection with the greybeards out of it.

by geggam 7y ago

StreamBright 7y ago

Same here. I do devops for 10 years (used to be called systems engineering) and have implemented containers once and Kubernetes zero times. I successfully made companies avoid Kubernetes several times. Most of the time tool focused people think that the next thing is a miracle that makes every problem go away, which is certainly not true. If you define the problems first and try to find solutions than you get much better results. Choosing a tool and try to find problems it solves is idiotic. Just like using Kubernetes instead of something much simpler.

zaphirplane 7y ago
Don’t have a dog in this fight , how do you handle container migration on host failure
- StreamBright 7y ago
  You are implying that we need container migration. I give you one example of how you do not need that. Let's set up an autoscaling group with node count = 10. On node error you terminate the node in trouble. Autoscaling detects that you have less capacity than required. Creates a new instance. You are good. This is a much simpler solution to the problem than trying to think where you container fits, avoiding cascading problems and trying to track the state of your cluster.
  - cookiecaper 7y ago
    And to be clear, "container migration" is nothing more advanced than this "take the failed system out of service and spawn it somewhere else" routine that we've been doing since time immemorial. Things like VMware's vMotion or KVM's live migration can detect trouble and transparently move the running VM -- network connections, memory state, and all -- onto a different underlying host, leaving end users none the wiser. That's the kind of thing noobs throw out the window when they come in fired up about how k8s have health checks, because they've never heard of health checks before. People are trying to recreate container-level mobility with things like CRI-U, which is very cool, very cutting edge stuff, but right now it's so unpredictable even the k8s crowd is afraid to touch it. ;) Once these things eventually pan out and the functionality gets tangled up into some contrived k8s-ified YAML abomination (aka "blessed by the Great Googly Appendage"), when the k8s fanboys start hailing it as the savior of all computerdom, I'm sure I'll be making posts like "Uh, hi, this is awesome tech, but live migration anyone? We've had this for a long time..." CRI-U has the potential to open many doors, and while true live container migration may be one of them, it's not really the exciting one, primarily because we've already had fatter-but-functionally-similar support for server workloads through VM migration/snapshots. CRI-U's promise is in all the things we can do with process-level "save states" that aren't just "moving 300MB of RAM at a time instead of 8G".
  - zaphirplane 7y ago
    The general question is how do you handle host failure in a container world without k8s I think are answering how to do it in k8s. As an aside your answer works for stateless workloads not for stateful

FridgeSeal 7y ago

I’m sure the team I’m in (10 total, of which none of us are “devils”, and only half are devs) could probably do our stuff without containers and Kubernetes, but honestly, the fact that I can make a commit to a repo, and in a couple of minutes the latest version of my code and dependencies is up and running, with things like SSL certs, DNS records and domain names sorted, all logging is sorted (I don’t have to worry about logging libs and connections to logging services, I just write to the console and it’s all collected and indexed in ElasticSearch; if my service goes down Kubernetes brings it right back up in a matter of moments, I don’t have to provision anything, underlying instances are automatically replaced if they fail, and resource requirements are automatically handled, as is horizontal scaling. So, so, so much is done (near) out of the box that we don’t need to worry about, it’s amazing. I’m sure there’s a pre-Kubernetes way of doing it, but I don’t imagine it’s nearly as low friction. When that 15% occurrence happens, community forums exist, failing that, we pay for great support from our cloud provider, and absolutely worst comes to worst, we can just blow away the whole thing and redeploy because our whole environment is setup so that you can go from blank slate to apps running production again in just under an hour.

geggam 7y ago
Ideally your automation and everything else is done so you have a reproducible environment. If that is the case and you recreate the environment when you run into that 15% problem you should be recreating the problem. Yes there were methods of doing the same thing pre containers. smoother and simpler IMO Simplest was the ship everything in a tarball using embedded deps so everything was inclusive. Production was pointed to the latest release via a link. New release was done and you simply changed the link. Rollback was as simple as changing the link back to the previous version.
cookiecaper 7y ago
> So, so, so much is done (near) out of the box that we don’t need to worry about, it’s amazing. I’m sure there’s a pre-Kubernetes way of doing it, but I don’t imagine it’s nearly as low friction. My suggestion would be that you not rely on your imagination, but actually look into some non-k8s options. NixOps is a good place to start. You'll be pleasantly surprised how much simpler it can be, and may even get an improved emotional connection with the greybeards out of it.