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Meanwhile, there is that Chinese Huawei Executive who is being held hostage in Canada as a trading chip in a trade war, waiting for her extradition to the US on

Meanwhile, there is that Chinese Huawei Executive who is being held hostage in Canada as a trading chip in a trade war, waiting for her extradition to the US on the invented charges of having had traded with Iran (which is completely legal in China). If anything, I'd say it is a wonder that China has not started taking US Americans and Canadians hostage for the crime of being US American and/or Canadian.

i_am_nomad 7y ago
China has done precisely that: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/16/canadians-detained-in-china-charged-with-espionage https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/16/canadians-deta...
- ShorsHammer 7y ago
  Somewhat tangential: Do you think there are no spies operating in China whom are known to the current government? Why would China choose some random Westerners over known intel assets while knowing full well the case will appear so prominently on the world stage? Tourism makes up 10% of their economy. Nations tolerate this stuff and are well aware of who is who, it's how it is. Kicking out a known operative means another unknown will replace them. Better the enemy you know and such. There's a recent video from the CIA on the lengths they go to disguise embassy-tasked folk and how they get them out into the _world_. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JASUsVY5YJ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JASUsVY5YJ8
  - some_random 7y ago
    They just execute the spies. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spies-espionage.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spie...
    - close04 7y ago
      Do we know what other countries do in such cases? The US has consistently addressed possible terrorists with black sites or drone strikes (executions). So is it beyond the realm of possibility that at least parts of undercover spy networks are dealt with in similar ways? And is there any expectation that a newspaper would be able to exercise the right to free speech and report on this given that a gag order is enough to prevent any such attempts under the threat of prison time (possibly in one of those black sites)? Countries (especially superpowers) have been known to remove any semblance of due process, freedom, and security in the name of... freedom and security. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act P.S. I expect downvotes for my comment. I don't expect any will be accompanied by any attempts at a counter-argument. And my comment is not about whatabboutism, just that you can't single out someone unless they are actually singular in their actions.
      - roywiggins 7y ago
        You may recall the Russian "Illegals." They were exchanged. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegals_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegals_Program Also the "Cuban Five", who either served a prison sentence or were exchanged. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Five https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Five You may be surprised to hear it, but the FBI (who runs internal counterespionage in the US) operates rather differently from China. I suppose the FBI could be organizing hits on American citizens suspected of spying for China, but on the whole it seems like one of the least likely abuses. The CIA gets up to all sorts of things abroad, but running a kidnap/murder program inside the country is not particularly the FBI's style.
        close04 7y ago
        All sides use some of the captured spies for exchanges, it's good business. And I'm sure all of them also kill some to send a message, also good business sometimes (in this case 18-20 killed or imprisoned). My point wasn't to single out one agency - FBI, CIA, etc. Is your honest belief that no foreign spies were executed on US soil, or no spy networks were dismantled like this? "Combatants" (in quotes because the meaning tended to change over time) that take no issues with killing (collateral victims included), torturing, holding people for decades with no due process, or even something as plain and legal as the death penalty for crimes committed by their own citizens, etc. will draw the line at executing a foreign spy that ostensibly deserves it according to most countries' laws and rules of engagement? Why would spies be treated any better than any enemy or even the citizens? There's no point in singling out one country for something like this unless you're specifically looking to deceive yourself straight up the moral high ground. In this "business" expect things that are lowest of the low on any moral scale. From all sides.
    - Nasrudith 7y ago
      I thought those were jusr their catspaws and the norm for spying was far more sociopathically aristocratic - the official spies have if not holding diplomatic immunity have some sort of official connection. Executing them is technically legally perscribed but simply not done in practice - instead being kept for prisoner exchanges. Their networks of local contacts who do the actual work may not even get the benefit of a third world kangaroo court trial.
      - roywiggins 7y ago
        The handlers usually do have diplomatic cover. The sources don't, they're local people with access to valuable information. "Catspaws" is not quite right. The people who got rounded up in China were CIA sources.
- DocTomoe 7y ago
  In all fairness, one of these guys organizes trips to North Korea. It's not like they were making themselves inconspicuous.
sarcasmOrTears 7y ago
They redone a trial for a canadian and gave him the death penalty, I said that's quite the retaliation for the whole huawei thing.
- ngcc_hk 7y ago
  May not be enough. But there are ten of thousands of potential hostage. Real the statement by American congress majority leader about the case.
- sky_nox 7y ago
  That Canadian man smuggled 200 kilos(440 pounds) of meth into China. If he did that in Singapore or Japan, he would get death penalty too.
JumpCrisscross 7y ago
> waiting for her extradition to the US In a court of law, where she will have the chance to plead her case in public. If she is extradited, she will have that chance again in America. The government, in summary, will have to prove its case. Such a system, the rule of law, doesn’t exist in China. (It does in Hong Kong.) That is why reasonable people are angry about this legislation.

i_am_nomad 7y ago

China has done precisely that: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/16/canadians-detained-in-china-charged-with-espionage https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/may/16/canadians-deta...

ShorsHammer 7y ago
Somewhat tangential: Do you think there are no spies operating in China whom are known to the current government? Why would China choose some random Westerners over known intel assets while knowing full well the case will appear so prominently on the world stage? Tourism makes up 10% of their economy. Nations tolerate this stuff and are well aware of who is who, it's how it is. Kicking out a known operative means another unknown will replace them. Better the enemy you know and such. There's a recent video from the CIA on the lengths they go to disguise embassy-tasked folk and how they get them out into the _world_. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JASUsVY5YJ8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JASUsVY5YJ8
- some_random 7y ago
  They just execute the spies. https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spies-espionage.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/asia/china-cia-spie...
  - close04 7y ago
    Do we know what other countries do in such cases? The US has consistently addressed possible terrorists with black sites or drone strikes (executions). So is it beyond the realm of possibility that at least parts of undercover spy networks are dealt with in similar ways? And is there any expectation that a newspaper would be able to exercise the right to free speech and report on this given that a gag order is enough to prevent any such attempts under the threat of prison time (possibly in one of those black sites)? Countries (especially superpowers) have been known to remove any semblance of due process, freedom, and security in the name of... freedom and security. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriot_Act P.S. I expect downvotes for my comment. I don't expect any will be accompanied by any attempts at a counter-argument. And my comment is not about whatabboutism, just that you can't single out someone unless they are actually singular in their actions.
    - roywiggins 7y ago
      You may recall the Russian "Illegals." They were exchanged. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegals_Program https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegals_Program Also the "Cuban Five", who either served a prison sentence or were exchanged. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Five https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Five You may be surprised to hear it, but the FBI (who runs internal counterespionage in the US) operates rather differently from China. I suppose the FBI could be organizing hits on American citizens suspected of spying for China, but on the whole it seems like one of the least likely abuses. The CIA gets up to all sorts of things abroad, but running a kidnap/murder program inside the country is not particularly the FBI's style.
      - close04 7y ago
        All sides use some of the captured spies for exchanges, it's good business. And I'm sure all of them also kill some to send a message, also good business sometimes (in this case 18-20 killed or imprisoned). My point wasn't to single out one agency - FBI, CIA, etc. Is your honest belief that no foreign spies were executed on US soil, or no spy networks were dismantled like this? "Combatants" (in quotes because the meaning tended to change over time) that take no issues with killing (collateral victims included), torturing, holding people for decades with no due process, or even something as plain and legal as the death penalty for crimes committed by their own citizens, etc. will draw the line at executing a foreign spy that ostensibly deserves it according to most countries' laws and rules of engagement? Why would spies be treated any better than any enemy or even the citizens? There's no point in singling out one country for something like this unless you're specifically looking to deceive yourself straight up the moral high ground. In this "business" expect things that are lowest of the low on any moral scale. From all sides.
  - Nasrudith 7y ago
    I thought those were jusr their catspaws and the norm for spying was far more sociopathically aristocratic - the official spies have if not holding diplomatic immunity have some sort of official connection. Executing them is technically legally perscribed but simply not done in practice - instead being kept for prisoner exchanges. Their networks of local contacts who do the actual work may not even get the benefit of a third world kangaroo court trial.
    - roywiggins 7y ago
      The handlers usually do have diplomatic cover. The sources don't, they're local people with access to valuable information. "Catspaws" is not quite right. The people who got rounded up in China were CIA sources.
DocTomoe 7y ago
In all fairness, one of these guys organizes trips to North Korea. It's not like they were making themselves inconspicuous.

sarcasmOrTears 7y ago

They redone a trial for a canadian and gave him the death penalty, I said that's quite the retaliation for the whole huawei thing.

ngcc_hk 7y ago
May not be enough. But there are ten of thousands of potential hostage. Real the statement by American congress majority leader about the case.
sky_nox 7y ago
That Canadian man smuggled 200 kilos(440 pounds) of meth into China. If he did that in Singapore or Japan, he would get death penalty too.

JumpCrisscross 7y ago

> waiting for her extradition to the US In a court of law, where she will have the chance to plead her case in public. If she is extradited, she will have that chance again in America. The government, in summary, will have to prove its case. Such a system, the rule of law, doesn’t exist in China. (It does in Hong Kong.) That is why reasonable people are angry about this legislation.