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The leader of the strongest country lies every time it speaks. Once and again wars are sold as freedom campaigns and coups as saving democracy. Surveilance has

The leader of the strongest country lies every time it speaks. Once and again wars are sold as freedom campaigns and coups as saving democracy. Surveilance has been institutionalized and privacy comoditized. We are in the most orwelian era yet.

VvR-Ox 7y ago
This attitude may give you some downvotes - BTW: Many people here are from the US and they usually react to criticism about their countries policy and leader in a bad way.
- Fnoord 7y ago
  I'm from The Netherlands. Please share all the criticism you have about our PM Mark Rutte or our king Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands.
  - VvR-Ox 7y ago
    I'm afraid I don't know enough about them and their politics to criticize them. We could discuss about their view of the EU policy but I think it would be another topic for another thread. Why are you demanding this when I say that a lot of US-citizens have difficulties with reacting to criticism?
    - Fnoord 7y ago
      My point is the following. We got a saying here. High trees catch a lot of wind. That is true for any US president. Furthermore he sings a different song than the previous president. Those factors alone will cause controversy. We didn't even start about Trump's personality and his controversial election. These are just turmoil on the fire. Those 2 fellows I mentioned are high trees here in NL but on the international playing field there's much higher ones such as any US president.
      - VvR-Ox 7y ago
        Nice phrase, I'll remember that one. I had to read your answer twice to realize you just compared the "Orange Monkey" to Obama. Very funny though the only thing they have in common is that they will have been POTUS. I think the basic issue with this inability to cope with criticism is more of this national/patriot attitude that many US citizens still have. They think their country is the single most greatest on earth and that it is their god given right to rule over everything. In real life countries like China act much smarter as they gain power and influence through superior economic actions (see belt and road project) and not through warmongering and invading other countries (see nearly everything the US does in other countries). Still it's not easy to find ppl from US who just accept this fact. They instantly start to play their "commy cassette" just like when you try to talk about Russia. It's not about facts anymore and it's highly subjective so a discussion is near to impossible. About NL: I'm sorry to say that but NL has nearly no power on earth and they don't act that globally. They didn't elect some *)(/&%/&$% like Trump. The worst NL politician I know of is this Nazi Geert Wilders. I didn't hear him publicly inviting men to "grab women by the pussies" and stuff like that and he has no power over armed forces and stuff like that. In the end I probably didn't quite understand your view. I said that "many US citizens have a hard time coping with criticism about their country's or leader's politics" and you counter with "all US presidents are high trees". So could it be that your goal here was to weaken my critics in showing how patriotic the people from NL are as well to tell me that it's normal to defend "your country and leader"? I don't get it.
        Fnoord 7y ago
        I'm not trying to weaken your criticism or make you upset, I'm trying to broaden your view. I'm probably -politically- much more aligned with you than it may seem throughout these posts. That being said as understandable as it may seem I suggest we refrain from unnecessary name-calling. My point [with the high tree saying which also has an apparently has an English version [1]] is that the leader of the US of A is also a leader of the G7/G8 and G20. Plus, the US is the one of the strongest forces in the world. If not the strongest, military speaking, economically speaking as well (AFAIK). Its also a democratic country where people are free to criticize the sitting president. Such factors matter. They count for every US president. The factors (controversy) regarding Trump's personality amplify these factors even more. Your points about nationalism/patriotism/fascism might also be true (or not). I have no clearly formed opinion on that in combination with this subject. Either way, it'd also be on top of the factors I already described. You could also be patriotic and be against Trump, though, just like you could say what Edward Snowden did was an act of patriotism. [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hoge_bomen_vangen_veel_wind https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hoge_bomen_vangen_veel_wind
- sudoaza 7y ago
  I get downvoted sometimes for expressing my opinion, i've come to expect that here (though your prediction and my expectations were so far wrong in this case), but i dont think saying that Tr*mp lies shamelessly is new to anyone, even its suporters.
  - anigbrowl 7y ago
    Supporters of a dishonest leader are mostly well aware of the dishonesty (pity the few victims that actually fall for it, because they're most likely to be the eventual casualties of a catastrophic resolution). For them, the lies function as a shibboleth which allows mutual recognition and cooperation through the pretence of a shared counterfactual. An amusing example is when people complain about 'virtue signaling' - almost everyone engages in this, but because the word virtue has moral connotations it is projected onto people who make moral arguments and superficially appears consonant with and a critique of their behavior, when actually the underlying purpose of the complaint is for people who ostensibly object to virtue signaling to recognize and team up with each other by shared recognition of an in-joke. That is to say, pejorative use of the term 'virtue signaling' is an instance of covert virtue signaling.
  - StanislavPetrov 7y ago
    There has been no president in any of our lifetimes that hasn't lied shamelessly.
    - sudoaza 7y ago
      True

VvR-Ox 7y ago

This attitude may give you some downvotes - BTW: Many people here are from the US and they usually react to criticism about their countries policy and leader in a bad way.

Fnoord 7y ago
I'm from The Netherlands. Please share all the criticism you have about our PM Mark Rutte or our king Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands.
- VvR-Ox 7y ago
  I'm afraid I don't know enough about them and their politics to criticize them. We could discuss about their view of the EU policy but I think it would be another topic for another thread. Why are you demanding this when I say that a lot of US-citizens have difficulties with reacting to criticism?
  - Fnoord 7y ago
    My point is the following. We got a saying here. High trees catch a lot of wind. That is true for any US president. Furthermore he sings a different song than the previous president. Those factors alone will cause controversy. We didn't even start about Trump's personality and his controversial election. These are just turmoil on the fire. Those 2 fellows I mentioned are high trees here in NL but on the international playing field there's much higher ones such as any US president.
    - VvR-Ox 7y ago
      Nice phrase, I'll remember that one. I had to read your answer twice to realize you just compared the "Orange Monkey" to Obama. Very funny though the only thing they have in common is that they will have been POTUS. I think the basic issue with this inability to cope with criticism is more of this national/patriot attitude that many US citizens still have. They think their country is the single most greatest on earth and that it is their god given right to rule over everything. In real life countries like China act much smarter as they gain power and influence through superior economic actions (see belt and road project) and not through warmongering and invading other countries (see nearly everything the US does in other countries). Still it's not easy to find ppl from US who just accept this fact. They instantly start to play their "commy cassette" just like when you try to talk about Russia. It's not about facts anymore and it's highly subjective so a discussion is near to impossible. About NL: I'm sorry to say that but NL has nearly no power on earth and they don't act that globally. They didn't elect some *)(/&%/&$% like Trump. The worst NL politician I know of is this Nazi Geert Wilders. I didn't hear him publicly inviting men to "grab women by the pussies" and stuff like that and he has no power over armed forces and stuff like that. In the end I probably didn't quite understand your view. I said that "many US citizens have a hard time coping with criticism about their country's or leader's politics" and you counter with "all US presidents are high trees". So could it be that your goal here was to weaken my critics in showing how patriotic the people from NL are as well to tell me that it's normal to defend "your country and leader"? I don't get it.
      - Fnoord 7y ago
        I'm not trying to weaken your criticism or make you upset, I'm trying to broaden your view. I'm probably -politically- much more aligned with you than it may seem throughout these posts. That being said as understandable as it may seem I suggest we refrain from unnecessary name-calling. My point [with the high tree saying which also has an apparently has an English version [1]] is that the leader of the US of A is also a leader of the G7/G8 and G20. Plus, the US is the one of the strongest forces in the world. If not the strongest, military speaking, economically speaking as well (AFAIK). Its also a democratic country where people are free to criticize the sitting president. Such factors matter. They count for every US president. The factors (controversy) regarding Trump's personality amplify these factors even more. Your points about nationalism/patriotism/fascism might also be true (or not). I have no clearly formed opinion on that in combination with this subject. Either way, it'd also be on top of the factors I already described. You could also be patriotic and be against Trump, though, just like you could say what Edward Snowden did was an act of patriotism. [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hoge_bomen_vangen_veel_wind https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hoge_bomen_vangen_veel_wind
sudoaza 7y ago
I get downvoted sometimes for expressing my opinion, i've come to expect that here (though your prediction and my expectations were so far wrong in this case), but i dont think saying that Tr*mp lies shamelessly is new to anyone, even its suporters.
- anigbrowl 7y ago
  Supporters of a dishonest leader are mostly well aware of the dishonesty (pity the few victims that actually fall for it, because they're most likely to be the eventual casualties of a catastrophic resolution). For them, the lies function as a shibboleth which allows mutual recognition and cooperation through the pretence of a shared counterfactual. An amusing example is when people complain about 'virtue signaling' - almost everyone engages in this, but because the word virtue has moral connotations it is projected onto people who make moral arguments and superficially appears consonant with and a critique of their behavior, when actually the underlying purpose of the complaint is for people who ostensibly object to virtue signaling to recognize and team up with each other by shared recognition of an in-joke. That is to say, pejorative use of the term 'virtue signaling' is an instance of covert virtue signaling.
- StanislavPetrov 7y ago
  There has been no president in any of our lifetimes that hasn't lied shamelessly.
  - sudoaza 7y ago
    True