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Non-layman here, no it's not an misinterpretation of the statute. It makes electronic signatures as good as regular ones in interstate commerce. Period. Full s

Non-layman here, no it's not an misinterpretation of the statute. It makes electronic signatures as good as regular ones in interstate commerce. Period. Full stop. Caselaw supports this in spades. The only meaningful case otherwise is where statutes explicitly require in-writing signatures (a good example is copyright transfers). There is an intra-state version of this is UETA.

mehrdadn 7y ago
Could I ask which part of this "case law supports in spades"? I imagine you're not claiming they have to accept emails (?) and otherwise I don't even see how you could e-sign this to begin with; you have to write the letter that ends up in their P.O. Box somehow, so you have to make the statement yourself and put your personal signature on paper (via ink or toner or otherwise is not the point) and mail it to them. But here you don't even write the letter or sign the letter yourself in any sense of the word. Like if a judge asked you "you need to have written and personally signed this letter for it to be valid; did you do that?" would you just give a straight unqualified "yes" and believe that would fly?
- jachee 7y ago
  "Yes. I personally filled out an electronic signature for my intent to opt out, Your Honor."
  - mehrdadn 7y ago
    "You did not answer my question" is what I would expect after that.
    - DannyBee 7y ago
      The answer to your question would be yes. Your electronic signature, printed out and transformed to a different medium, is still a valid signature. The whole point of the act is to say that clicking a button on a computer to make a signature that is valid. That it later gets transmitted in some other form is irrelevant. If i create and print out a docusigned document and mail it, it is still a personally written and signed document. It is no different if I fill out a form that makes a document for me and click a button to sign it. If this is confusing, answer my reply above and I'll try to start seeing where the confusion is
- DannyBee 7y ago
  I'm trying to understand your argument and I guess I don't. So lets start simple so I can understand it better: Do you think a signature made by a human clicking a button on a computer and then printed out is an electronic signature or a physical non-electronic one?
  - mehrdadn 7y ago
    In this case, "a physical non-electronic signature". I could also see it as "a physical copy of an electronic signature" depending on if it's used in circumstances where you're presenting it as merely a copy of the original (e.g. for documentation/records of your contract with that website), but that's not the case here. Either way I don't see it as "an electronic signature" as far as the agreement goes. If it's on paper it's very clearly not "in electronic form". Actually it's just like how if you send someone a letter via USPS that you typed and printed from Gmail then you've sent them mail, or perhaps a physical copy of an email, but not "an email".
    - DannyBee 7y ago
      Okay, so you are confusing concepts like "what is a signature", "what is an original", and "what would a court accept as valid evidence". We are going to mostly put aside the third for now. First: A signature does not change form once created. A physically signed document is a physically signed document, regardless of whether i scan it in. An electronically signed document is electronically signed regardless of whether i print it. Period. The form does not change once created. Only it's originalness and acceptability as evidence. So then what is electronic. Second: Your definition of electronic is ... not encompassing enough. Let's go to the E-SIGN act: "ELECTRONIC– The term 'electronic' means relating to technology having electrical, digital, magnetic, wireless, optical, electromagnetic, or similar capabilities." That's a lot. "ELECTRONIC SIGNATURE– The term 'electronic signature' means an electronic sound, symbol, or process, attached to or logically associated with a contract or other record and executed or adopted by a person with the intent to sign the record." Note that because of the definition of electronic in the first part, the second is a lot broader than it looks despite it also being fairly expansive. It only has to be associated with and then executed/adopted by a person with intent to sign a record. Note that it does not say electronic record (which the act defines) or electronic contract. Other parts of the act are restricted to electronic records/contracts, but given the duality, no court i'm aware of has read the limitation into this part of the act (the opposite is in fact true). So what i gave you what a clear electronic signature. It was electronic process associated with a contract or record, executed by a person with intent to sign it. It doesn't matter if it was later printed. The act itself will even support this. Now we move on to what does the act say about such signatures or contract or ... ; " (1) a signature, contract, or other record relating to such transaction may not be denied legal effect, validity, or enforceability solely because it is in electronic form; (2) a contract relating to such transaction may not be denied legal effect, validity, or enforceability solely because an electronic signature or electronic record was used in its formation. ... (g) Notarization and Acknowledgment.--If a statute, regulation, or other rule of law requires a signature or record relating to a transaction in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce to be notarized, acknowledged, verified, or made under oath, that requirement is satisfied if the electronic signature of the person authorized to perform those acts, together with all other information required to be included by other applicable statute, regulation, or rule of law, is attached to or logically associated with the signature or record. ... (h) Electronic Agents.--A contract or other record relating to a transaction in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce may not be denied legal effect, validity, or enforceability solely because its formation, creation, or delivery involved the action of one or more electronic agents so long as the action of any such electronic agent is legally attributable to the person to be bound. " Remember again our definition of electronic is very broad here. The first says the signatures and contracts are valid even when they were in electronic form. That is again true even if i print it out and later mail it. You may run into the issue about what is acceptable evidence to a court for the document itself, but you will not run into the issue of "is the signature on this document, which was originally electronic, valid as a signature". The second says that a contract (again, very broad definition, definitely includes letter like this one!) can't be denied validity just because you used an electronic record or signature in forming it. The printing it out doesn't make it less of an electronic signature. The section on notarization makes this even more clear. It doesn't even require an electronic record (as other parts of the statute explicitly do), it says you can electronically notarize a regular record, as long as you attach or associate it somehow. Even further, e-sign destroys the argument that you didn't make the contract. It even allows me to use an electronic agent to make, form, and deliver contracts if i like, as long as it's attributable to me. UETA is even more straightforward (though inapplicable in this particular case): " (c) If a law requires a record to be in writing, an electronic record satisfies the law. (d) If a law requires a signature, an electronic signature satisfies the law. " It even says email does not change form: "“Electronic mail message” means an electronic message or computer file that is transmitted between two or more telecommunications devices; computers; computer networks, regardless of whether the network is a local, regional, or global network; or electronic devices capable of receiving electronic messages, regardless of whether the message is converted to hard copy format after receipt, viewed upon transmission, or stored for later retrieval." Note the last sentence. There are lots of state court and federal court opinions on this. Outside of other laws, etc, clicking a button on this form will be considered mailing a physical copy of an electronically generated signature.

mehrdadn 7y ago

Could I ask which part of this "case law supports in spades"? I imagine you're not claiming they have to accept emails (?) and otherwise I don't even see how you could e-sign this to begin with; you have to write the letter that ends up in their P.O. Box somehow, so you have to make the statement yourself and put your personal signature on paper (via ink or toner or otherwise is not the point) and mail it to them. But here you don't even write the letter or sign the letter yourself in any sense of the word. Like if a judge asked you "you need to have written and personally signed this letter for it to be valid; did you do that?" would you just give a straight unqualified "yes" and believe that would fly?

jachee 7y ago
"Yes. I personally filled out an electronic signature for my intent to opt out, Your Honor."
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  "You did not answer my question" is what I would expect after that.
  - DannyBee 7y ago
    The answer to your question would be yes. Your electronic signature, printed out and transformed to a different medium, is still a valid signature. The whole point of the act is to say that clicking a button on a computer to make a signature that is valid. That it later gets transmitted in some other form is irrelevant. If i create and print out a docusigned document and mail it, it is still a personally written and signed document. It is no different if I fill out a form that makes a document for me and click a button to sign it. If this is confusing, answer my reply above and I'll try to start seeing where the confusion is
DannyBee 7y ago
I'm trying to understand your argument and I guess I don't. So lets start simple so I can understand it better: Do you think a signature made by a human clicking a button on a computer and then printed out is an electronic signature or a physical non-electronic one?
- mehrdadn 7y ago
  In this case, "a physical non-electronic signature". I could also see it as "a physical copy of an electronic signature" depending on if it's used in circumstances where you're presenting it as merely a copy of the original (e.g. for documentation/records of your contract with that website), but that's not the case here. Either way I don't see it as "an electronic signature" as far as the agreement goes. If it's on paper it's very clearly not "in electronic form". Actually it's just like how if you send someone a letter via USPS that you typed and printed from Gmail then you've sent them mail, or perhaps a physical copy of an email, but not "an email".
  - DannyBee 7y ago
    Okay, so you are confusing concepts like "what is a signature", "what is an original", and "what would a court accept as valid evidence". We are going to mostly put aside the third for now. First: A signature does not change form once created. A physically signed document is a physically signed document, regardless of whether i scan it in. An electronically signed document is electronically signed regardless of whether i print it. Period. The form does not change once created. Only it's originalness and acceptability as evidence. So then what is electronic. Second: Your definition of electronic is ... not encompassing enough. Let's go to the E-SIGN act: "ELECTRONIC– The term 'electronic' means relating to technology having electrical, digital, magnetic, wireless, optical, electromagnetic, or similar capabilities." That's a lot. "ELECTRONIC SIGNATURE– The term 'electronic signature' means an electronic sound, symbol, or process, attached to or logically associated with a contract or other record and executed or adopted by a person with the intent to sign the record." Note that because of the definition of electronic in the first part, the second is a lot broader than it looks despite it also being fairly expansive. It only has to be associated with and then executed/adopted by a person with intent to sign a record. Note that it does not say electronic record (which the act defines) or electronic contract. Other parts of the act are restricted to electronic records/contracts, but given the duality, no court i'm aware of has read the limitation into this part of the act (the opposite is in fact true). So what i gave you what a clear electronic signature. It was electronic process associated with a contract or record, executed by a person with intent to sign it. It doesn't matter if it was later printed. The act itself will even support this. Now we move on to what does the act say about such signatures or contract or ... ; " (1) a signature, contract, or other record relating to such transaction may not be denied legal effect, validity, or enforceability solely because it is in electronic form; (2) a contract relating to such transaction may not be denied legal effect, validity, or enforceability solely because an electronic signature or electronic record was used in its formation. ... (g) Notarization and Acknowledgment.--If a statute, regulation, or other rule of law requires a signature or record relating to a transaction in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce to be notarized, acknowledged, verified, or made under oath, that requirement is satisfied if the electronic signature of the person authorized to perform those acts, together with all other information required to be included by other applicable statute, regulation, or rule of law, is attached to or logically associated with the signature or record. ... (h) Electronic Agents.--A contract or other record relating to a transaction in or affecting interstate or foreign commerce may not be denied legal effect, validity, or enforceability solely because its formation, creation, or delivery involved the action of one or more electronic agents so long as the action of any such electronic agent is legally attributable to the person to be bound. " Remember again our definition of electronic is very broad here. The first says the signatures and contracts are valid even when they were in electronic form. That is again true even if i print it out and later mail it. You may run into the issue about what is acceptable evidence to a court for the document itself, but you will not run into the issue of "is the signature on this document, which was originally electronic, valid as a signature". The second says that a contract (again, very broad definition, definitely includes letter like this one!) can't be denied validity just because you used an electronic record or signature in forming it. The printing it out doesn't make it less of an electronic signature. The section on notarization makes this even more clear. It doesn't even require an electronic record (as other parts of the statute explicitly do), it says you can electronically notarize a regular record, as long as you attach or associate it somehow. Even further, e-sign destroys the argument that you didn't make the contract. It even allows me to use an electronic agent to make, form, and deliver contracts if i like, as long as it's attributable to me. UETA is even more straightforward (though inapplicable in this particular case): " (c) If a law requires a record to be in writing, an electronic record satisfies the law. (d) If a law requires a signature, an electronic signature satisfies the law. " It even says email does not change form: "“Electronic mail message” means an electronic message or computer file that is transmitted between two or more telecommunications devices; computers; computer networks, regardless of whether the network is a local, regional, or global network; or electronic devices capable of receiving electronic messages, regardless of whether the message is converted to hard copy format after receipt, viewed upon transmission, or stored for later retrieval." Note the last sentence. There are lots of state court and federal court opinions on this. Outside of other laws, etc, clicking a button on this form will be considered mailing a physical copy of an electronically generated signature.