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Is there evidence all these creatures dislike captivity and would prefer fending for themselves in the wild? Genuinely curious. Not that it means anything, but

by kypro 7y ago

Is there evidence all these creatures dislike captivity and would prefer fending for themselves in the wild? Genuinely curious. Not that it means anything, but dolphins have always seemed happy in captivity so long as they are being cared for appropriately.

onion2k 7y ago
That would depend on our ability to assess the creatures likes and dislikes, which is unlikely to be perfect. They might appear fine that doesn't mean they actually are. For that reason I suggest it would make more sense to only allow keeping animals in captivity if we can prove they're not being harmed rather than assume they're alright and only ban keeping them when we can be prove it harms them.
RankingMember 7y ago
> It is not a matter of opinion that orca whales, bottlenose dolphins and beluga whales die prematurely when kept in captive settings, but rather a potent and recurring reality. Marino & Frohoff (2011) show that this is especially and most dramatically seen in the orca whale, with males living on average 29.2 years in the wild with an observed maximum of 60 years, and females living 50.2 years on average with an observed maximum of 90 years. Their naturally extensive lifespan is shortened severely when they are placed in captive environments, with few orcas living past the age of 20 in captivity (p. 3) > Many cetaceans in captivity develop stereotypies, or unnatural, often purposeless behaviors that can be a manifestation of poor mental health. Such behaviors include repetitive pacing, swaying, head-bobbing or circling, and bar-biting (Cetacean Inspiration, 2011). One of the most prominent stereotypies noticed in these whales is an activity known as slide outs. The whale will slide out of the water and sit motionless, sometimes for 10 minutes at a time (Cetacean Inspiration, 2011). This creates safety issues for the guests of marine mammal parks like SeaWorld. If a whale did this in the wild for too long of a time the weight of the whale could crush its own internal organs (Cetacean Inspiration, 2011). https://blogs.umass.edu/natsci397a-eross/the-detriments-of-captive-cetacean-research-2/ https://blogs.umass.edu/natsci397a-eross/the-detriments-of-c...
- marvin-83 7y ago
  From the study that Marino & Frohoff (2011) cites for orca whale lifespan in the wild: > Using data from between 1973-4 and 1987, females have a mean life expectancy of 50.2 yr How is this possible? I don't understand how a 14 year observation window allows someone to observe an average life expectancy of 50 years.
  - moate 7y ago
    Because they're able to tell how old the whale is when it died. They're not observing whales from birth to death in each instance. If you tried to do that, you'd be unable to speak on life expectancy on species with lifespans greater than like 10 years.
    - marvin-83 7y ago
      by autopsy? Or is there clear external physiology that indicates the age?
      - moate 7y ago
        https://www.quora.com/How-do-biologists-tell-the-age-of-a-whale https://www.quora.com/How-do-biologists-tell-the-age-of-a-wh... Quick and dirty: size is a pretty good indicator to approximate, but if you've got yourself a dead whale you can check the bones to get a better number.
- mcv 7y ago
  Would it be anthropomorphism to consider such a slide out a suicide attempt?
  - bunderbunder 7y ago
    Eh. . . . yeah? I'm not sure that's a very strong criticism. We're much more similar to other mammals than we are different from them, so our understanding of human behavior provides a very strong basis for understanding other animals' behaviors. There's a whole book about that sort of thing, by a fairly well-respected scientist in the field: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Expression_of_the_Emotions_in_Man_and_Animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Expression_of_the_Emotions...
maxxxxx 7y ago
Not to criticize you but I remember reading similar lines in books that dealt with slavery: “they look so happy”, “they are being kept so well”. It’s probably best to always assume that the natural habitat is the best for animals.
- 292355744930110 7y ago
  Whales are not humans.
fatbird 7y ago
Upvoting because legit question offers an opportunity to inform. Most whales have a natural range of thousands of miles over the course of a year. Keeping them in tanks, no matter how generous to our eyes, is the equivalent of keeping a human in a bathroom for their entire life—-with exactly as little stimulation or variety as that implies. Another response observes that whales in captivity always develop at least some neurotic behaviours, and this is generally regarded as directly caused by the incredibly limited environment in which they spend their lives. At one time, the argument was made that having them perform for crowds was necessary to keep them from going crazy.
- maxxxxx 7y ago
  “At one time, the argument was made that having them perform for crowds was necessary to keep them from going crazy.” I think that’s actually a valid argument if you keep something in captivity. When you put humans in jail it’s also better to give them something to do instead of just having them sit around. Freedom is still the best option though.
  - officeplant 7y ago
    Now I almost feel less disturbed about a prison that puts on a rodeo in my state.
    - maxxxxx 7y ago
      Rodeo is animal abuse so I don’t support that. But otherwise it’s good for prisoners to have something to do. I have read about programs where they train dogs. If i was in prison I’d be happy to do that.
  - astura 7y ago
    This study seems to show that training by humans to perform in shows had a negative effect on juvenile orcas. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4997274/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4997274/ >From 1979 to 1980, however, we were able to interact with juvenile orcas in an unstructured way at San Diego’s SeaWorld facility. We observed in the animals what appeared to be pranks, tests of trust, limited use of tactical deception, emotional self-control, and empathetic behaviors. Our observations were consistent with those of a former Seaworld trainer, and provide important insights into orca cognition, communication, and social intelligence. However, after being trained as performers within Seaworld’s commercial entertainment program, a number of orcas began to exhibit aggressive behaviors. The orcas who previously established apparent friendships with humans were most affected, although significant aggression also occurred in some of their descendants, and among the orcas they lived with.
astura 7y ago
If nothing else, orcas don't do well in captivity from a health perspective https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2019/03/orcas-captivity-welfare/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2019/03/orcas-cap... Even if they look happy during shows, the "behind the scenes" activities can be objectively very cruel. https://www.thedodo.com/tilileaks-exclusive-documents--639864949.html https://www.thedodo.com/tilileaks-exclusive-documents--63986...
- 52-6F-62 7y ago
  For those of us who grew up in the 90's, it's the entire premise of the movie "Free Willy".
pard68 7y ago
I rescue reptiles as a hobby. US and state laws, as well as just common sense (ie wrong biome) dictate that it is illegal to release reptiles back into the wild after they have been in captivity, my state has set a period of four weeks,after which you cannot legally return a wild caught reptile to the wild. Because of this and the rather specialized level of care needed to keep reptiles, myself and others like me end up rescuing a lot of unwanted animals. I have some lizards but generally keep turtles and consider them my "domain". All that to say I have never met a reptile I felt would rather be in captivity. Maybe the exception is the tegu whick does seem very content to remain captive.
uhhhhhhh 7y ago
>The dolphin's toothy grin masks its suffering and contributes to the myth that dolphins in theme parks enjoy a happy life. In truth, dolphins cannot move their facial muscles to communicate inner feelings like humans can. Dolphins appear to smile even while injured or seriously ill. The smile is a feature of a dolphin's anatomy unrelated to its health or emotional state. We need to stop assuming as people we're able to tell the emotions of non-humans without specific training/experience.

by kypro 7y ago

onion2k 7y ago

That would depend on our ability to assess the creatures likes and dislikes, which is unlikely to be perfect. They might appear fine that doesn't mean they actually are. For that reason I suggest it would make more sense to only allow keeping animals in captivity if we can prove they're not being harmed rather than assume they're alright and only ban keeping them when we can be prove it harms them.

RankingMember 7y ago

> It is not a matter of opinion that orca whales, bottlenose dolphins and beluga whales die prematurely when kept in captive settings, but rather a potent and recurring reality. Marino & Frohoff (2011) show that this is especially and most dramatically seen in the orca whale, with males living on average 29.2 years in the wild with an observed maximum of 60 years, and females living 50.2 years on average with an observed maximum of 90 years. Their naturally extensive lifespan is shortened severely when they are placed in captive environments, with few orcas living past the age of 20 in captivity (p. 3) > Many cetaceans in captivity develop stereotypies, or unnatural, often purposeless behaviors that can be a manifestation of poor mental health. Such behaviors include repetitive pacing, swaying, head-bobbing or circling, and bar-biting (Cetacean Inspiration, 2011). One of the most prominent stereotypies noticed in these whales is an activity known as slide outs. The whale will slide out of the water and sit motionless, sometimes for 10 minutes at a time (Cetacean Inspiration, 2011). This creates safety issues for the guests of marine mammal parks like SeaWorld. If a whale did this in the wild for too long of a time the weight of the whale could crush its own internal organs (Cetacean Inspiration, 2011). https://blogs.umass.edu/natsci397a-eross/the-detriments-of-captive-cetacean-research-2/ https://blogs.umass.edu/natsci397a-eross/the-detriments-of-c...

marvin-83 7y ago
From the study that Marino & Frohoff (2011) cites for orca whale lifespan in the wild: > Using data from between 1973-4 and 1987, females have a mean life expectancy of 50.2 yr How is this possible? I don't understand how a 14 year observation window allows someone to observe an average life expectancy of 50 years.
- moate 7y ago
  Because they're able to tell how old the whale is when it died. They're not observing whales from birth to death in each instance. If you tried to do that, you'd be unable to speak on life expectancy on species with lifespans greater than like 10 years.
  - marvin-83 7y ago
    by autopsy? Or is there clear external physiology that indicates the age?
    - moate 7y ago
      https://www.quora.com/How-do-biologists-tell-the-age-of-a-whale https://www.quora.com/How-do-biologists-tell-the-age-of-a-wh... Quick and dirty: size is a pretty good indicator to approximate, but if you've got yourself a dead whale you can check the bones to get a better number.
mcv 7y ago
Would it be anthropomorphism to consider such a slide out a suicide attempt?
- bunderbunder 7y ago
  Eh. . . . yeah? I'm not sure that's a very strong criticism. We're much more similar to other mammals than we are different from them, so our understanding of human behavior provides a very strong basis for understanding other animals' behaviors. There's a whole book about that sort of thing, by a fairly well-respected scientist in the field: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Expression_of_the_Emotions_in_Man_and_Animals https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Expression_of_the_Emotions...

maxxxxx 7y ago

Not to criticize you but I remember reading similar lines in books that dealt with slavery: “they look so happy”, “they are being kept so well”. It’s probably best to always assume that the natural habitat is the best for animals.

292355744930110 7y ago
Whales are not humans.

fatbird 7y ago

Upvoting because legit question offers an opportunity to inform. Most whales have a natural range of thousands of miles over the course of a year. Keeping them in tanks, no matter how generous to our eyes, is the equivalent of keeping a human in a bathroom for their entire life—-with exactly as little stimulation or variety as that implies. Another response observes that whales in captivity always develop at least some neurotic behaviours, and this is generally regarded as directly caused by the incredibly limited environment in which they spend their lives. At one time, the argument was made that having them perform for crowds was necessary to keep them from going crazy.

maxxxxx 7y ago
“At one time, the argument was made that having them perform for crowds was necessary to keep them from going crazy.” I think that’s actually a valid argument if you keep something in captivity. When you put humans in jail it’s also better to give them something to do instead of just having them sit around. Freedom is still the best option though.
- officeplant 7y ago
  Now I almost feel less disturbed about a prison that puts on a rodeo in my state.
  - maxxxxx 7y ago
    Rodeo is animal abuse so I don’t support that. But otherwise it’s good for prisoners to have something to do. I have read about programs where they train dogs. If i was in prison I’d be happy to do that.
- astura 7y ago
  This study seems to show that training by humans to perform in shows had a negative effect on juvenile orcas. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4997274/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4997274/ >From 1979 to 1980, however, we were able to interact with juvenile orcas in an unstructured way at San Diego’s SeaWorld facility. We observed in the animals what appeared to be pranks, tests of trust, limited use of tactical deception, emotional self-control, and empathetic behaviors. Our observations were consistent with those of a former Seaworld trainer, and provide important insights into orca cognition, communication, and social intelligence. However, after being trained as performers within Seaworld’s commercial entertainment program, a number of orcas began to exhibit aggressive behaviors. The orcas who previously established apparent friendships with humans were most affected, although significant aggression also occurred in some of their descendants, and among the orcas they lived with.

astura 7y ago

If nothing else, orcas don't do well in captivity from a health perspective https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2019/03/orcas-captivity-welfare/ https://www.nationalgeographic.com/animals/2019/03/orcas-cap... Even if they look happy during shows, the "behind the scenes" activities can be objectively very cruel. https://www.thedodo.com/tilileaks-exclusive-documents--639864949.html https://www.thedodo.com/tilileaks-exclusive-documents--63986...

52-6F-62 7y ago
For those of us who grew up in the 90's, it's the entire premise of the movie "Free Willy".

pard68 7y ago

I rescue reptiles as a hobby. US and state laws, as well as just common sense (ie wrong biome) dictate that it is illegal to release reptiles back into the wild after they have been in captivity, my state has set a period of four weeks,after which you cannot legally return a wild caught reptile to the wild. Because of this and the rather specialized level of care needed to keep reptiles, myself and others like me end up rescuing a lot of unwanted animals. I have some lizards but generally keep turtles and consider them my "domain". All that to say I have never met a reptile I felt would rather be in captivity. Maybe the exception is the tegu whick does seem very content to remain captive.

uhhhhhhh 7y ago

>The dolphin's toothy grin masks its suffering and contributes to the myth that dolphins in theme parks enjoy a happy life. In truth, dolphins cannot move their facial muscles to communicate inner feelings like humans can. Dolphins appear to smile even while injured or seriously ill. The smile is a feature of a dolphin's anatomy unrelated to its health or emotional state. We need to stop assuming as people we're able to tell the emotions of non-humans without specific training/experience.