5 ms·

> while still being officially allowed to take the devices home with us, use them privately and so on. Who owns the rights to IP developed on these company-own

> while still being officially allowed to take the devices home with us, use them privately and so on. Who owns the rights to IP developed on these company-owned laptops? One of the biggest problems with this kind of ‘unspoken flexibility’ is that any side projects you work on are in-part owned by the company, under most standard agreements.

reubenmorais 7y ago
Isn't that the case regardless of what laptop you're using? As far as I can tell you should assume any side projects are Copyright (c) your employer unless you talk to legal first and make an arrangement (for each project). See for example: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-projects/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-pr...
- userbinator 7y ago
  No, what you do on your own time (not company time) with your own resources can't be owned by the company, because otherwise everything you do would be owned by the company, which is absurd; suppose I went to a friend or relative and helped him/her out by writing a simple script, does that belong to the company now? How about posts you make on HN outside of work (if you do it at work, that's... questionable)? The possibility of companies disagreeing is why I keep my work and private life completely separate, and the online portion of the latter does not even use my name nor anything that could be associated with my "offline" identity.
  - reubenmorais 7y ago
    Please see the link I added. You should check your employment contract to see the exact terms of the copyright assignment clause you signed, but it's definitely very common to have to assign any inventions you make that are "related to your employers area of work", regardless of what hardware you use or if you do it in the office or at home.
    - sdoering 7y ago
      Well who signs contracts like these? I mean really? And why? I really cannot understand anybody giving away that much of their live for an employer/the next paycheck. Yeah - if I am really, really in a tight spot financially - for as long as it takes to crawl out of such a mess - ok. But regularly? Long term? Help me to understand. And I also do not understand how a company could find this morally acceptable to have this idea. I mean is this really the norm in the US?
      - drchickensalad 7y ago
        99% of people sign them. Almost everyone will barely read it. The rest assume that it won't affect them.
      - NegativeLatency 7y ago
        Unfortunately it is the norm. (With tech companies)
      - oarsinsync 7y ago
        A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I'd rather get paid more today than take a lower salary with the potential to possibly, if I'm really lucky, strike gold with my own invention.
      - Xylakant 7y ago
        > Well who signs contracts like these? I mean really? And why? I really cannot understand anybody giving away that much of their live for an employer/the next paycheck. The outrage is a bit funny, because that's actually the law in Germany. It doesn't even need to be in the contract. (1) And if you think about it, it makes sense: Otherwise every employee who finds something patentable during working hours just clocks out, goes home and invents it "on his own time." And that would be a problem for an employer, too. So the deal is "employer pays you, and gets first dibs on whatever you invent in the general area that the employer pays you to work in." (1) https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbnerfg/index.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbnerfg/index.html
  - human20190310 7y ago
    > [S]uppose I went to a friend or relative and helped him/her out by writing a simple script, does that belong to the company now? That's a good question, and only answerable by checking what you've signed and what the laws in your jurisdiction are. Some of the agreements, even in the US, are pretty aggressive about grabbing as much IP from an employee as possible.
  - inlined 7y ago
    AFAIK, despite your work contract, CA protects personal projects even done on a company laptop. It just can’t be done on work hours or with a novel tool provided by work. I’m paraphrasing an attorney’s explanations so I can’t cite the code.
- lukejduncan 7y ago
  Fortunately, not in California.
  - saagarjha 7y ago
    Depends. California’s law only applies if you aren’t working in the same business as your employer, which means if you work for any large company you almost certainly can get in trouble with pretty much anything.
- elithrar 7y ago
  I want to be clear that my question relates to artifacts you produce on company-owned resources - not just in your own time on your own machine. Legal precedence around IP ownership - when you've used company-owned machines - is far less clear.
  - dkonofalski 7y ago
    If the machine is company owned then the designation is usually whether the artifact or area of work is related to the main course of work. If you freelance in the same industry as your employer, you may have a tough time proving the distinction. Most of these agreements are only enforceable, though, when there's an overlap of work area regardless of who owns the machine. If the company is giving the employee the ability to use the hardware for personal use then the point of the hardware being company-owned is irrelevant to whether the work is being done on behalf of the company and, therefore, owned by the company.
sdoering 7y ago
Me being in Germany and clearly not a lawyer. That said: I own all my intellectual property, of everything I develop in my free time on this device. And in Germany, at least as far as I am aware, these broad regulations some US employers try to force on their employees have been thrown out by court decisions. But not sure on that. I would not work for a company that would try to ensure it owns all of what I do outside of company time.
- Xylakant 7y ago
  > Me being in Germany and clearly not a lawyer. That said: I own all my intellectual property, of everything I develop in my free time on this device. > I would not work for a company that would try to ensure it owns all of what I do outside of company time. You might want to read the laws governing this, notably the "Gesetz über Arbeitnehmererfindungen" (https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbnerfg/ https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbnerfg/) It's fairly short and clear. Work contracts often don't mention that because a lot of what you can invent is already owned by your employer by law. Notably everything that can be patented and primarily results from your work or your or your experience at work: (1) Erfindungen von Arbeitnehmern im Sinne dieses Gesetzes können gebundene oder freie Erfindungen sein. (2) Gebundene Erfindungen (Diensterfindungen) sind während der Dauer des Arbeitsverhältnisses gemachte Erfindungen, die entweder 1. aus der dem Arbeitnehmer im Betrieb oder in der öffentlichen Verwaltung obliegenden Tätigkeit entstanden sind oder 2. maßgeblich auf Erfahrungen oder Arbeiten des Betriebes oder der öffentlichen Verwaltung beruhen. You need to be fairly compensated etc., but the employer gets first rights. (and fairly does not necessarily mean market value) The rules apply independent of which device you're using though. Compensation might differ slightly, but the rules around that are longer than the law itself :)
  - sdoering 7y ago
    > a lot of what you can invent is already owned by your employer by law I recommend § 18 and § 19 of said "Gesetz über Arbeitnehmererfindungen". They state that inventions that are clearly not done on the employers payroll (to paraphrase this) are so called free (you have to enable your employer to make that call and you could dispute him, if he tries to claim said invention) (§§18). But you need to enable your employer to use said (free) invention with reasonable terms - but you dictate the terms (§§19). Your employer can dispute the conditions and a court of law then has to decide. So clearly this law does not enable your employer to claim nearly every invention you could make in your free time. At least as far as my understanding goes. But I might be totally wrong here. I am somewhat out of my experience here.

reubenmorais 7y ago

Isn't that the case regardless of what laptop you're using? As far as I can tell you should assume any side projects are Copyright (c) your employer unless you talk to legal first and make an arrangement (for each project). See for example: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-projects/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2016/12/09/developers-side-pr...

userbinator 7y ago
No, what you do on your own time (not company time) with your own resources can't be owned by the company, because otherwise everything you do would be owned by the company, which is absurd; suppose I went to a friend or relative and helped him/her out by writing a simple script, does that belong to the company now? How about posts you make on HN outside of work (if you do it at work, that's... questionable)? The possibility of companies disagreeing is why I keep my work and private life completely separate, and the online portion of the latter does not even use my name nor anything that could be associated with my "offline" identity.
- reubenmorais 7y ago
  Please see the link I added. You should check your employment contract to see the exact terms of the copyright assignment clause you signed, but it's definitely very common to have to assign any inventions you make that are "related to your employers area of work", regardless of what hardware you use or if you do it in the office or at home.
  - sdoering 7y ago
    Well who signs contracts like these? I mean really? And why? I really cannot understand anybody giving away that much of their live for an employer/the next paycheck. Yeah - if I am really, really in a tight spot financially - for as long as it takes to crawl out of such a mess - ok. But regularly? Long term? Help me to understand. And I also do not understand how a company could find this morally acceptable to have this idea. I mean is this really the norm in the US?
    - drchickensalad 7y ago
      99% of people sign them. Almost everyone will barely read it. The rest assume that it won't affect them.
    - NegativeLatency 7y ago
      Unfortunately it is the norm. (With tech companies)
    - oarsinsync 7y ago
      A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I'd rather get paid more today than take a lower salary with the potential to possibly, if I'm really lucky, strike gold with my own invention.
    - Xylakant 7y ago
      > Well who signs contracts like these? I mean really? And why? I really cannot understand anybody giving away that much of their live for an employer/the next paycheck. The outrage is a bit funny, because that's actually the law in Germany. It doesn't even need to be in the contract. (1) And if you think about it, it makes sense: Otherwise every employee who finds something patentable during working hours just clocks out, goes home and invents it "on his own time." And that would be a problem for an employer, too. So the deal is "employer pays you, and gets first dibs on whatever you invent in the general area that the employer pays you to work in." (1) https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbnerfg/index.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbnerfg/index.html
- human20190310 7y ago
  > [S]uppose I went to a friend or relative and helped him/her out by writing a simple script, does that belong to the company now? That's a good question, and only answerable by checking what you've signed and what the laws in your jurisdiction are. Some of the agreements, even in the US, are pretty aggressive about grabbing as much IP from an employee as possible.
- inlined 7y ago
  AFAIK, despite your work contract, CA protects personal projects even done on a company laptop. It just can’t be done on work hours or with a novel tool provided by work. I’m paraphrasing an attorney’s explanations so I can’t cite the code.
lukejduncan 7y ago
Fortunately, not in California.
- saagarjha 7y ago
  Depends. California’s law only applies if you aren’t working in the same business as your employer, which means if you work for any large company you almost certainly can get in trouble with pretty much anything.
elithrar 7y ago
I want to be clear that my question relates to artifacts you produce on company-owned resources - not just in your own time on your own machine. Legal precedence around IP ownership - when you've used company-owned machines - is far less clear.
- dkonofalski 7y ago
  If the machine is company owned then the designation is usually whether the artifact or area of work is related to the main course of work. If you freelance in the same industry as your employer, you may have a tough time proving the distinction. Most of these agreements are only enforceable, though, when there's an overlap of work area regardless of who owns the machine. If the company is giving the employee the ability to use the hardware for personal use then the point of the hardware being company-owned is irrelevant to whether the work is being done on behalf of the company and, therefore, owned by the company.

sdoering 7y ago

Me being in Germany and clearly not a lawyer. That said: I own all my intellectual property, of everything I develop in my free time on this device. And in Germany, at least as far as I am aware, these broad regulations some US employers try to force on their employees have been thrown out by court decisions. But not sure on that. I would not work for a company that would try to ensure it owns all of what I do outside of company time.

Xylakant 7y ago
> Me being in Germany and clearly not a lawyer. That said: I own all my intellectual property, of everything I develop in my free time on this device. > I would not work for a company that would try to ensure it owns all of what I do outside of company time. You might want to read the laws governing this, notably the "Gesetz über Arbeitnehmererfindungen" (https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbnerfg/ https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/arbnerfg/) It's fairly short and clear. Work contracts often don't mention that because a lot of what you can invent is already owned by your employer by law. Notably everything that can be patented and primarily results from your work or your or your experience at work: (1) Erfindungen von Arbeitnehmern im Sinne dieses Gesetzes können gebundene oder freie Erfindungen sein. (2) Gebundene Erfindungen (Diensterfindungen) sind während der Dauer des Arbeitsverhältnisses gemachte Erfindungen, die entweder 1. aus der dem Arbeitnehmer im Betrieb oder in der öffentlichen Verwaltung obliegenden Tätigkeit entstanden sind oder 2. maßgeblich auf Erfahrungen oder Arbeiten des Betriebes oder der öffentlichen Verwaltung beruhen. You need to be fairly compensated etc., but the employer gets first rights. (and fairly does not necessarily mean market value) The rules apply independent of which device you're using though. Compensation might differ slightly, but the rules around that are longer than the law itself :)
- sdoering 7y ago
  > a lot of what you can invent is already owned by your employer by law I recommend § 18 and § 19 of said "Gesetz über Arbeitnehmererfindungen". They state that inventions that are clearly not done on the employers payroll (to paraphrase this) are so called free (you have to enable your employer to make that call and you could dispute him, if he tries to claim said invention) (§§18). But you need to enable your employer to use said (free) invention with reasonable terms - but you dictate the terms (§§19). Your employer can dispute the conditions and a court of law then has to decide. So clearly this law does not enable your employer to claim nearly every invention you could make in your free time. At least as far as my understanding goes. But I might be totally wrong here. I am somewhat out of my experience here.