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Ask HN: Great idea, but loose/vague patents might exist

I've come up with a rather interesting idea for a web application that might make a fair amount of money. Being one of the few times this has happened I decided to dig in and do some research. One of my mentors and friends looks at the idea and approves, but says he remembers seeing a lot of patents that describe something like it. He remembers them being very vague and loosely defined. Being the optimist I am I decide to do some simple patent searches to find out if he's right. That ended up being a little harder than I thought, and there are already a few that seem similar. What's a hacker to do? Give up on the idea? Is there a better way to find patents that might conflict with an idea? Should I just not care?

Skywing 16y ago
Well, you've basically explained to us that you have an idea and are not sure if there are patents that cover the idea but have a friend who claims to have seen patents that do. You went and looked for them and found some that sound similar. The "hacker" in me would most likely have been coding this prior to even thinking about patents. What does a patent have to do with it if it doesn't even exist, yet?
- krainboltgreene 16y ago
  Wouldn't a patent I didn't know about later bite me in the ass down the road? You can be cautious and a hacker :)
  - rhizome 16y ago
    You can also pay to license patents if it ever even comes up. :)
    - krainboltgreene 16y ago
      I didn't know I could do that! This is why I come to HN :)
      - imp 16y ago
        Well, that is one possible outcome if the patent holder agrees to it. You can't guarantee that they will grant you a license though.
pkamb 16y ago
Forget you ever knew anything about them. There's some leniency against the company seeking money for the time before they first told you about the patents if you didn't know there was a patent. Especially if the patents are vague. Also: how long until they expire?
rubinelli 16y ago
Have you ever thought about moving to another country?
- krainboltgreene 16y ago
  Would that really make a difference? Interesting idea.
  - ablutop 16y ago
    (IANAL) In Europe, software is not patentable unless there is a kind of physical/technical effect that goes beyond the normal interaction between the program and the computer. The usual example is the software to control a anti-lock braking system: as there is a technical effect, it is patentable... More details here: http://www.epo.org/topics/issues/computer-implemented-inventions/software.html http://www.epo.org/topics/issues/computer-implemented-invent...
curt 16y ago
Engineering around a lose/vague patent if you find a good patent attorney isn't that difficult. Also remember that even if you violate a patent, most patent's aren't enforced because the company owning the patent doesn't have the resources to file suit or no longer exists. Read the claims within the patent, if yours varies from the written claim or can modify it in such a way then you have little worry (depending on the company). For the best advice find a patent attorney and talk to them. There are entrepreneurial law firms that will give you an hour or two for free in the hope of future business. This is what I did when I was starting out. Bring in the potential patents and your idea and get advice from an expert. Trust me you'll save a lot of time.
sga 16y ago
Don't give up on the idea and don't lose motivation if your idea is already out there or if it 'seems' to be patented (assuming you feel strongly about the idea). I would be shocked if aspects of your idea and the method by which you implement your idea doesn't change between now and when it is built. As such, your search at this time may not be completely relevant to the product you ultimately create. I would advise you to build whatever it is you're building while keeping in mind that it may be patentable. Given the potential for patentability down the road I would not freely discuss the details or 'secret sauce' of the idea (discuss what the app will enable but not how it does what it does). Depending on where you intend to file for a patent, public disclosure will either initiate a count down (at the end of which you must begin the patent filing process) or make it so that you can't patent the idea.

Skywing 16y ago

Well, you've basically explained to us that you have an idea and are not sure if there are patents that cover the idea but have a friend who claims to have seen patents that do. You went and looked for them and found some that sound similar. The "hacker" in me would most likely have been coding this prior to even thinking about patents. What does a patent have to do with it if it doesn't even exist, yet?

krainboltgreene 16y ago
Wouldn't a patent I didn't know about later bite me in the ass down the road? You can be cautious and a hacker :)
- rhizome 16y ago
  You can also pay to license patents if it ever even comes up. :)
  - krainboltgreene 16y ago
    I didn't know I could do that! This is why I come to HN :)
    - imp 16y ago
      Well, that is one possible outcome if the patent holder agrees to it. You can't guarantee that they will grant you a license though.

pkamb 16y ago

Forget you ever knew anything about them. There's some leniency against the company seeking money for the time before they first told you about the patents if you didn't know there was a patent. Especially if the patents are vague. Also: how long until they expire?

rubinelli 16y ago

Have you ever thought about moving to another country?

krainboltgreene 16y ago
Would that really make a difference? Interesting idea.
- ablutop 16y ago
  (IANAL) In Europe, software is not patentable unless there is a kind of physical/technical effect that goes beyond the normal interaction between the program and the computer. The usual example is the software to control a anti-lock braking system: as there is a technical effect, it is patentable... More details here: http://www.epo.org/topics/issues/computer-implemented-inventions/software.html http://www.epo.org/topics/issues/computer-implemented-invent...

curt 16y ago

Engineering around a lose/vague patent if you find a good patent attorney isn't that difficult. Also remember that even if you violate a patent, most patent's aren't enforced because the company owning the patent doesn't have the resources to file suit or no longer exists. Read the claims within the patent, if yours varies from the written claim or can modify it in such a way then you have little worry (depending on the company). For the best advice find a patent attorney and talk to them. There are entrepreneurial law firms that will give you an hour or two for free in the hope of future business. This is what I did when I was starting out. Bring in the potential patents and your idea and get advice from an expert. Trust me you'll save a lot of time.

sga 16y ago

Don't give up on the idea and don't lose motivation if your idea is already out there or if it 'seems' to be patented (assuming you feel strongly about the idea). I would be shocked if aspects of your idea and the method by which you implement your idea doesn't change between now and when it is built. As such, your search at this time may not be completely relevant to the product you ultimately create. I would advise you to build whatever it is you're building while keeping in mind that it may be patentable. Given the potential for patentability down the road I would not freely discuss the details or 'secret sauce' of the idea (discuss what the app will enable but not how it does what it does). Depending on where you intend to file for a patent, public disclosure will either initiate a count down (at the end of which you must begin the patent filing process) or make it so that you can't patent the idea.