11 ms·

An obvious solution is to carry two devices: one for work, on which the company can install whatever corporate spyware they want, and one for personal use. Ther

An obvious solution is to carry two devices: one for work, on which the company can install whatever corporate spyware they want, and one for personal use. There's no way I'm letting my employer administer or install unknown programs on my personal laptop and cell even with this enrollment option. This has nothing to do with trusting or distrusting Apple. It's due to avoiding complexity: having to think about a zillion cases of what the employer can and can't do. I don't want to study a 30-page security whitepaper and 300 pages of documentation that probably come with this new enrollment thingie. But if I have two devices--with physical separation--I don't have to think about all sorts of security and privacy gotchas. Buying a cheap extra work phone and carrying two phones is not that big a burden. Plus you can turn off the work phone during personal time, and turn off the personal phone during work.

pjmlp 7y ago
Naturally. I never got the BYOD thing. My employer should provide the required tools, if not, then the work is done within the constraints of what is available.
- aflag 7y ago
  It's kind of weird that the employer wants the employee to bring their device, but don't want to trust the employee's device anyway.
  - sdoering 7y ago
    Sometimes it is not about trust. It is about regulations within the industry one works/contracts in. But if this is the case I believe strongly, that the employer must provide the necessary tooling.
    - closeparen 7y ago
      Which regulation requires spyware on endpoints, and where in the text does it say that?
      - aNoob7000 7y ago
        Anything in financial services and probably health requires you to secure company data.
        closeparen 7y ago
        A regulation is a specific text, not a general idea about the importance of security or the sensitivity of an industry.
      - sdoering 7y ago
        In Germany for example most companies in the automotive space require all contractors to conform to the [TiSAX](https://enx.com/tisax/tisax-en.html https://enx.com/tisax/tisax-en.html) regulations. These state, that there needs to be proof of several data security aspects on all devices of all people working in a facility for one of these companies/clients as a contractor: - Anti Virus software up to date - Firewall active - Harddisk encrypted - Ability to remotely lock device - Ability to remotely wipe device To ensure that this is in place at all times on all devices one needs a programatic solution - Endpoint Management. And as this needs to be root (for remote wipe) - this could be seen as spyware (as I like to call it internally). So yeah - there are a lot of companies/industries enforcing this. As someone above said - banking is another industry, insurance, medical and other high profile stuff with sensitive data might come to mind. The text does not say this - but this I added just from experience. And I actually hope that someday companies like mine could go the Apple way and ensure Endpoint Management on a per user account basis. That way I could still take home my company laptop and use it privately with a different user.
        tomp 7y ago
        iOS allows remote wipe functionallity in the standard mail client. Hopefully this doesn't enable any spying... Personally, I'm happy for my employer to have this functionality (trusting them not to abuse it)... My personal data is backed to the cloud anyways, so if I lose my phone I want it to be wiped.
        briandear 7y ago
- fuzzy2 7y ago
  The problem with employer-provided tools is that they sometimes barely meet the minimum requirements. Sure it gets the job done, but it’s no fun. I’d rather buy and manage my own device, which is then powerful enough for my needs.
  - adrianN 7y ago
    If your employer doesn't provide the tools you need it's time to talk to them about how much time you lose due to crappy hardware and how many hours of your salary would pay for a better machine.
    - LIV2 7y ago
      From experience it's usually that the employee thinks they need the most powerful 15" Macbook pro when their job entails something like writing blog posts or running code in AWS
      - thrower123 7y ago
        And from experience, those squeaky wheels get the grease and the engineers flog along with what they have because they are too busy to put the necessary amount of complaining in.
        52-6F-62 7y ago
        Can confirm. The ergonomic setups of some non-tech staff I've worked with has definitely out-paced myself. But some of the differences lie in understanding how to work around constraints. I've been putting off requesting some specific administered software removal from my own machine for months because I keep getting caught up in much more pressing work. In most cases I'm able to just work around it. In other cases, it just eats up time. But I can see the path through to a solution more clearly than any corporate wrangling.
    - dingaling 7y ago
      Which is nice in theory, but irrelevant to the employer when they can just tell you to 'work smarter' or face a PIP. Expenditure: $0. Of course the long-term cost is higher, but that's not a line-item expense. Honestly, I've been there; coding on a single 15" screen. Eventually most employees brought in a second monitor from home.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  My employer offered to buy me a laptop. It was a perfectly good laptop in most respects, but I turned it down because I didn’t like the keyboard.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
sdoering 7y ago
I agree in general. And I do not get the BYOD thing. As another commenter said, an employer should provide the tools necessary. Or live with the constraints. I am in another camp. Until recently my employer had a policy of treating our devices somewhat like private devices. We are provided with the device, are allowed to use them at home at will, are full admins. We are only requested to encrypt the harddrive. My employee never had access to my data if I did not provide it to them. So now two situations changed. Clients of ours force us to use endpoint management to ensure different "security" standards (some not as secure as I had before). Also we got bought by a bigger company and they have rules and regulations for their ~470k employees. These mean we will get some hefty spyware on our devices while still being officially allowed to take the devices home with us, use them privately and so on. Well. I am not so sure, I will do this in the future. I am not willing to introduce spyware that also scans all devices within the network to my home network. I do not want some admin on the other side of the world to be able to download any file from my device. Or to upload any file onto my device. So I will probably buy another computer (not having owned a private laptop for quite some time) to use at home. Same with my mobile phone. On the other hand - I hate to carry two devices with me. For me separating out private/freelance stuff onto one machine and corporate stuff onto another makes things more complicated. And I know convenience kills security. Sorry for my rant, without providing much to the discussion. I mean - it is my work device and my employer is within their full right to install whatever they wish - once the works council agrees.
- gdfasfklshg4 7y ago
  > I am not willing to introduce spyware that also scans all devices within the network to my home network. In the EU I would seriously doubt that your employer is allowed to do this.
  - sdoering 7y ago
    > In the EU I would seriously doubt that your employer is allowed to do this. Sadly they are. At least as far as any lawyer on this topic currently stated.
  - tinus_hn 7y ago
diminoten 7y ago
It is a burden however, and one that isn't necessary if your company has a sane BYOD policy that protects them while not being too invasive. The reality is, convenience wins again here. I, for one, don't give a shit what control my company has over my phone. Not only has nothing ever happened as a result of me using a BYOD policy, the overall rate in the industry seems acceptably low too. I only have 24 hours in my day, I can't be worrying about things that aren't likely to effect me in any material way. I simply don't have time.
- quicklime 7y ago
  What do you consider an acceptably low rate, and what is the actual rate? I hear stories all the time about companies that are tracking their employees' GPS locations. Many of the stories involve people getting fired.
  - diminoten 7y ago
    Literally no you don't. What happens more often: car accidents due to speeding or people being fired because their company tracks where they are and doesn't approve? Do you still speed?
- moonfern 7y ago
  That policy relates to your whole working career. If you somehow managed to violate the policy you will deal with the people who have the power and/or duty to enforce this policy.
- ginko 7y ago
  The burden of having two devices seems lower than the burden of having to separate work from private life on a single device.
  - diminoten 7y ago
    It's not, by far.
C1sc0cat 7y ago
Why buy a phone for your employer surly its up to them to provide the right equipment.
theghostie 7y ago
Most people I know don’t want to carry two devices, nor do I want to switch from iOS to Android or vice versa. All I really want is to be able to do my emails and calendars on my iPhone using the tools I already use without my employer having access to my phone. If this lets me do that, then I’m all for it.
iddqd 7y ago
I just read through the list of profiles that my employer installed on the device, decided they were not invasive and then started using it as my normal phone.
koolba 7y ago
> Buying a cheap extra work phone and carrying two phones is not that big a burden. Plus you can turn off the work phone during personal time, and turn off the personal phone during work. They (the company) better be the ones buying it. You shouldn’t have to pay to give your employer the ability to contact you outside of normal work hours.
- throw0101a 7y ago
  > They (the company) better be the ones buying it. In which case it's not really BYOD anymore. :)
grecy 7y ago
People seem to forget companies want to use BYOD because it saves them money. They don't have to pay for a phone for you to use, you've paid for it yourself.
- dspillett 7y ago
  It isn't just saving money: in the case of phones it is keeping you in easy contact. Having Teams/Slack/other on your phone so it will beep you when the company has a problem you could look at. A good company will be flexible in reverse so you can take that bit of time back when you need to, but many are not this decent so you are giving them your attention/time/effort for free. The company could provide a device for that of course, but people often don't want that or it isn't reliable: they don't want an extra device to carry around, they don't remember to keep it charged, they forget to take it with them far more often than their own phone, ... So as well as the cost aspect BYOD can make thing more convenient in other ways.
iamnothere 7y ago
I have done this as well, it definitely helps you sleep better. It also prevents work from intruding on personal time, as long as you're not on call--just leave the work device at home. It's also worthwhile to set up a separate home LAN for work stuff. This not only protects you, but it also ensures that work data is kept away from roommates, guests, etc. Prosumer-level routers and access points like Ubiquiti can broadcast multiple SSIDs and tag traffic on each with a different VLAN. Not at all hard to set up and definitely worth the peace of mind.
nonconvergent 7y ago
If you need it for work and are not an independent contractor then should pay for it. BYODTEI BYOD are a cost cutting measure by the office, but if you buy a second device then the cost isn't cut, it's transfered. To you. So congratulations on your pay decrease.
tinus_hn 7y ago
But then how can we install the right certificates for the enterprise ssl man in the middle proxy? Which we obviously need to check your traffic for viruses and we definitely don’t log anything that will ever leak! Besides, if you aren’t doing anything wrong, why do you have so much to hide anyway? /s
fatnoah 7y ago
>An obvious solution is to carry two devices: one for work, on which the company can install whatever corporate spyware they want, and one for personal use. I've lived under both regimes, and definitely preferred the multiple device one. It had its moments of inconvenience, but I loved putting the work phone in a drawer on Friday night and leaving it there until Monday morning.

pjmlp 7y ago

Naturally. I never got the BYOD thing. My employer should provide the required tools, if not, then the work is done within the constraints of what is available.

aflag 7y ago
It's kind of weird that the employer wants the employee to bring their device, but don't want to trust the employee's device anyway.
- sdoering 7y ago
  Sometimes it is not about trust. It is about regulations within the industry one works/contracts in. But if this is the case I believe strongly, that the employer must provide the necessary tooling.
  - closeparen 7y ago
    Which regulation requires spyware on endpoints, and where in the text does it say that?
    - aNoob7000 7y ago
      Anything in financial services and probably health requires you to secure company data.
      - closeparen 7y ago
        A regulation is a specific text, not a general idea about the importance of security or the sensitivity of an industry.
    - sdoering 7y ago
      In Germany for example most companies in the automotive space require all contractors to conform to the [TiSAX](https://enx.com/tisax/tisax-en.html https://enx.com/tisax/tisax-en.html) regulations. These state, that there needs to be proof of several data security aspects on all devices of all people working in a facility for one of these companies/clients as a contractor: - Anti Virus software up to date - Firewall active - Harddisk encrypted - Ability to remotely lock device - Ability to remotely wipe device To ensure that this is in place at all times on all devices one needs a programatic solution - Endpoint Management. And as this needs to be root (for remote wipe) - this could be seen as spyware (as I like to call it internally). So yeah - there are a lot of companies/industries enforcing this. As someone above said - banking is another industry, insurance, medical and other high profile stuff with sensitive data might come to mind. The text does not say this - but this I added just from experience. And I actually hope that someday companies like mine could go the Apple way and ensure Endpoint Management on a per user account basis. That way I could still take home my company laptop and use it privately with a different user.
      - tomp 7y ago
        iOS allows remote wipe functionallity in the standard mail client. Hopefully this doesn't enable any spying... Personally, I'm happy for my employer to have this functionality (trusting them not to abuse it)... My personal data is backed to the cloud anyways, so if I lose my phone I want it to be wiped.
      - briandear 7y ago
fuzzy2 7y ago
The problem with employer-provided tools is that they sometimes barely meet the minimum requirements. Sure it gets the job done, but it’s no fun. I’d rather buy and manage my own device, which is then powerful enough for my needs.
- adrianN 7y ago
  If your employer doesn't provide the tools you need it's time to talk to them about how much time you lose due to crappy hardware and how many hours of your salary would pay for a better machine.
  - LIV2 7y ago
    From experience it's usually that the employee thinks they need the most powerful 15" Macbook pro when their job entails something like writing blog posts or running code in AWS
    - thrower123 7y ago
      And from experience, those squeaky wheels get the grease and the engineers flog along with what they have because they are too busy to put the necessary amount of complaining in.
      - 52-6F-62 7y ago
        Can confirm. The ergonomic setups of some non-tech staff I've worked with has definitely out-paced myself. But some of the differences lie in understanding how to work around constraints. I've been putting off requesting some specific administered software removal from my own machine for months because I keep getting caught up in much more pressing work. In most cases I'm able to just work around it. In other cases, it just eats up time. But I can see the path through to a solution more clearly than any corporate wrangling.
  - dingaling 7y ago
    Which is nice in theory, but irrelevant to the employer when they can just tell you to 'work smarter' or face a PIP. Expenditure: $0. Of course the long-term cost is higher, but that's not a line-item expense. Honestly, I've been there; coding on a single 15" screen. Eventually most employees brought in a second monitor from home.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
My employer offered to buy me a laptop. It was a perfectly good laptop in most respects, but I turned it down because I didn’t like the keyboard.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

sdoering 7y ago

I agree in general. And I do not get the BYOD thing. As another commenter said, an employer should provide the tools necessary. Or live with the constraints. I am in another camp. Until recently my employer had a policy of treating our devices somewhat like private devices. We are provided with the device, are allowed to use them at home at will, are full admins. We are only requested to encrypt the harddrive. My employee never had access to my data if I did not provide it to them. So now two situations changed. Clients of ours force us to use endpoint management to ensure different "security" standards (some not as secure as I had before). Also we got bought by a bigger company and they have rules and regulations for their ~470k employees. These mean we will get some hefty spyware on our devices while still being officially allowed to take the devices home with us, use them privately and so on. Well. I am not so sure, I will do this in the future. I am not willing to introduce spyware that also scans all devices within the network to my home network. I do not want some admin on the other side of the world to be able to download any file from my device. Or to upload any file onto my device. So I will probably buy another computer (not having owned a private laptop for quite some time) to use at home. Same with my mobile phone. On the other hand - I hate to carry two devices with me. For me separating out private/freelance stuff onto one machine and corporate stuff onto another makes things more complicated. And I know convenience kills security. Sorry for my rant, without providing much to the discussion. I mean - it is my work device and my employer is within their full right to install whatever they wish - once the works council agrees.

gdfasfklshg4 7y ago
> I am not willing to introduce spyware that also scans all devices within the network to my home network. In the EU I would seriously doubt that your employer is allowed to do this.
- sdoering 7y ago
  > In the EU I would seriously doubt that your employer is allowed to do this. Sadly they are. At least as far as any lawyer on this topic currently stated.
- tinus_hn 7y ago

diminoten 7y ago

It is a burden however, and one that isn't necessary if your company has a sane BYOD policy that protects them while not being too invasive. The reality is, convenience wins again here. I, for one, don't give a shit what control my company has over my phone. Not only has nothing ever happened as a result of me using a BYOD policy, the overall rate in the industry seems acceptably low too. I only have 24 hours in my day, I can't be worrying about things that aren't likely to effect me in any material way. I simply don't have time.

quicklime 7y ago
What do you consider an acceptably low rate, and what is the actual rate? I hear stories all the time about companies that are tracking their employees' GPS locations. Many of the stories involve people getting fired.
- diminoten 7y ago
  Literally no you don't. What happens more often: car accidents due to speeding or people being fired because their company tracks where they are and doesn't approve? Do you still speed?
moonfern 7y ago
That policy relates to your whole working career. If you somehow managed to violate the policy you will deal with the people who have the power and/or duty to enforce this policy.
ginko 7y ago
The burden of having two devices seems lower than the burden of having to separate work from private life on a single device.
- diminoten 7y ago
  It's not, by far.

C1sc0cat 7y ago

Why buy a phone for your employer surly its up to them to provide the right equipment.

theghostie 7y ago

Most people I know don’t want to carry two devices, nor do I want to switch from iOS to Android or vice versa. All I really want is to be able to do my emails and calendars on my iPhone using the tools I already use without my employer having access to my phone. If this lets me do that, then I’m all for it.

iddqd 7y ago

I just read through the list of profiles that my employer installed on the device, decided they were not invasive and then started using it as my normal phone.

koolba 7y ago

> Buying a cheap extra work phone and carrying two phones is not that big a burden. Plus you can turn off the work phone during personal time, and turn off the personal phone during work. They (the company) better be the ones buying it. You shouldn’t have to pay to give your employer the ability to contact you outside of normal work hours.

throw0101a 7y ago
> They (the company) better be the ones buying it. In which case it's not really BYOD anymore. :)

grecy 7y ago

People seem to forget companies want to use BYOD because it saves them money. They don't have to pay for a phone for you to use, you've paid for it yourself.

dspillett 7y ago
It isn't just saving money: in the case of phones it is keeping you in easy contact. Having Teams/Slack/other on your phone so it will beep you when the company has a problem you could look at. A good company will be flexible in reverse so you can take that bit of time back when you need to, but many are not this decent so you are giving them your attention/time/effort for free. The company could provide a device for that of course, but people often don't want that or it isn't reliable: they don't want an extra device to carry around, they don't remember to keep it charged, they forget to take it with them far more often than their own phone, ... So as well as the cost aspect BYOD can make thing more convenient in other ways.

iamnothere 7y ago

I have done this as well, it definitely helps you sleep better. It also prevents work from intruding on personal time, as long as you're not on call--just leave the work device at home. It's also worthwhile to set up a separate home LAN for work stuff. This not only protects you, but it also ensures that work data is kept away from roommates, guests, etc. Prosumer-level routers and access points like Ubiquiti can broadcast multiple SSIDs and tag traffic on each with a different VLAN. Not at all hard to set up and definitely worth the peace of mind.

nonconvergent 7y ago

If you need it for work and are not an independent contractor then should pay for it. BYODTEI BYOD are a cost cutting measure by the office, but if you buy a second device then the cost isn't cut, it's transfered. To you. So congratulations on your pay decrease.

tinus_hn 7y ago

But then how can we install the right certificates for the enterprise ssl man in the middle proxy? Which we obviously need to check your traffic for viruses and we definitely don’t log anything that will ever leak! Besides, if you aren’t doing anything wrong, why do you have so much to hide anyway? /s

fatnoah 7y ago

>An obvious solution is to carry two devices: one for work, on which the company can install whatever corporate spyware they want, and one for personal use. I've lived under both regimes, and definitely preferred the multiple device one. It had its moments of inconvenience, but I loved putting the work phone in a drawer on Friday night and leaving it there until Monday morning.