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> with completely Open pieces AOSP is completely open source. Hardware and firmware is a much different story, but that applies to the device you're promoting

by strcat 7y ago

> with completely Open pieces AOSP is completely open source. Hardware and firmware is a much different story, but that applies to the device you're promoting just as much... > They're making good progress and I can't wait to be able to update my handheld device with mainline pieces for as long as anyone who still uses one cares to update it. Currently my Samsung Android device is at Dec 2018 patchlevel and nothing I can do about it. What's the relevance? It's also quite important to note that the Android patch level includes firmware. Purism doesn'tship firmware updates in PureOS as part of it being 'pure', so you would be stuck with the equivalent of an ancient patch level at least with the stock OS. You're also no less dependent on the companies releasing firmware updates. You're also bringing up hardware as an alternative to an OS that would run on the hardware that you're talking about. It's hard to understand the point. The Librem 5 will be a hardware target for GrapheneOS to consider. It will be missing many of the core hardware security and robustness features, so it couldn't be a tier 1 target, but it could still be unofficially or even officially supported. If it doesn't depend on any out-of-tree kernel drivers, that will apply to Android and GrapheneOS too. I'm not sure why you're bringing it up as something distinct.

deleted 7y ago
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cyphar 7y ago
> AOSP is completely open source. This is only true in the most technical way possible. Yes, AOSP is open source -- but none of the standard applications on any stock version of Android use AOSP anymore. The calendar and other applications are all proprietary. The AOSP versions feel like they stopped being developed in 2010 -- which coincidentally is when Google started developing proprietary replacements. I use LineageOS (and have for a while), which is mostly AOSP, and the applications from AOSP today feel older than the ones I used on Google's Android ~5 years ago. As a simple example, Google's Calendar application can create very complicated recurring events while the AOSP one is much dumber. > Hardware and firmware is a much different story, but that applies to the device you're promoting just as much... The Librem 5 hardware was specifically chosen so that it contains no firmware blobs and all the firmware is free software and upstream in Linux. There is a caveat for the baseband, but that's because it's not legal in most countries to sell or use baseband hardware that is free software (unless the user is licensed and even then it's non-trivial).
- wuschel 7y ago
  > There is a caveat for the baseband, but that's because it's not legal in most countries to sell or use baseband hardware that is free software (unless the user is licensed and even then it's non-trivial). Interesting, I did not know that. What are the reasons for this? Military application? Are these laws subject to change? I always thought that there is no way to separate the CPU from the baseband/communications PU.
  - cyphar 7y ago
    It's my understanding that the issue is one of FCC certification and licensing -- the FCC won't approve something which can be easily modified to transmit on non-free frequencies (tools which can usually are sold to hamradio license holders, which should know better and know how much trouble they can get into).
- nextos 7y ago
  > AOSP is open source -- but none of the standard applications on any stock version of Android use AOSP anymore. I want a real Linux in a phone as much as anyone. In fact, I have stuck to the Maemo N770-N9 saga as much as I could. But I am also realistic. Developing a new secure Linux distribution for phones and, most importantly, a healthy ecosystem with useful applications will take a lot of time and effort. In the meanwhile, as discussed in other threads here, using AOSP on a Pixel (or even better, GrapheneOS) is a really good solution. It's remarkable how few people use it in comparison to the benefits it brings into the table, and given it's quite easy to migrate to it with the appropriate hardware (hopefully device-independent ROMs make this less restrictive). If standard applications in AOSP are lagging behind, then it'd be probably worthy to spin off an effort to replicate all proprietary functionality. An equivalent to MicroG. That said, I've never missed anything major. For me, Firefox/Chromium, K-9, Conversations/Signal, OsmAnd and Termux provide a great userland experience.
- Tepix 7y ago
  OK, so with AOSP we have a good base to build upon. Why NOT use AOSP to create new FLOSS standard applications? It's certainly less work than having to start from scratch. Besides, there are already some really good free open source Android apps in the F-Droid app store

by strcat 7y ago

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

cyphar 7y ago

> AOSP is completely open source. This is only true in the most technical way possible. Yes, AOSP is open source -- but none of the standard applications on any stock version of Android use AOSP anymore. The calendar and other applications are all proprietary. The AOSP versions feel like they stopped being developed in 2010 -- which coincidentally is when Google started developing proprietary replacements. I use LineageOS (and have for a while), which is mostly AOSP, and the applications from AOSP today feel older than the ones I used on Google's Android ~5 years ago. As a simple example, Google's Calendar application can create very complicated recurring events while the AOSP one is much dumber. > Hardware and firmware is a much different story, but that applies to the device you're promoting just as much... The Librem 5 hardware was specifically chosen so that it contains no firmware blobs and all the firmware is free software and upstream in Linux. There is a caveat for the baseband, but that's because it's not legal in most countries to sell or use baseband hardware that is free software (unless the user is licensed and even then it's non-trivial).

wuschel 7y ago
> There is a caveat for the baseband, but that's because it's not legal in most countries to sell or use baseband hardware that is free software (unless the user is licensed and even then it's non-trivial). Interesting, I did not know that. What are the reasons for this? Military application? Are these laws subject to change? I always thought that there is no way to separate the CPU from the baseband/communications PU.
- cyphar 7y ago
  It's my understanding that the issue is one of FCC certification and licensing -- the FCC won't approve something which can be easily modified to transmit on non-free frequencies (tools which can usually are sold to hamradio license holders, which should know better and know how much trouble they can get into).
nextos 7y ago
> AOSP is open source -- but none of the standard applications on any stock version of Android use AOSP anymore. I want a real Linux in a phone as much as anyone. In fact, I have stuck to the Maemo N770-N9 saga as much as I could. But I am also realistic. Developing a new secure Linux distribution for phones and, most importantly, a healthy ecosystem with useful applications will take a lot of time and effort. In the meanwhile, as discussed in other threads here, using AOSP on a Pixel (or even better, GrapheneOS) is a really good solution. It's remarkable how few people use it in comparison to the benefits it brings into the table, and given it's quite easy to migrate to it with the appropriate hardware (hopefully device-independent ROMs make this less restrictive). If standard applications in AOSP are lagging behind, then it'd be probably worthy to spin off an effort to replicate all proprietary functionality. An equivalent to MicroG. That said, I've never missed anything major. For me, Firefox/Chromium, K-9, Conversations/Signal, OsmAnd and Termux provide a great userland experience.
Tepix 7y ago
OK, so with AOSP we have a good base to build upon. Why NOT use AOSP to create new FLOSS standard applications? It's certainly less work than having to start from scratch. Besides, there are already some really good free open source Android apps in the F-Droid app store