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An American Black Site
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- threezero 7y agoThe author really glossed over the reasons for the communications ban imposed on the terrorist prisoner - multiple people he spoke with ended up committing terrorist acts. Seems like a good enough reason to completely cut him off. In addition, the author really stretches when she complains that they brought in a gallon of liquid to feed him. If you’ve tried to feed a prisoner multiple times and you know they’re going to deliberately vomit it up, of course you’ll bring extra. There’s enough going on here where the author doesn’t need to add in things that actually seem logical, because now I’m questioning everything she wrote and how much of it was exaggerated.
- roywiggins 7y agoForce feeding is arguably a form of torture. https://www.apnews.com/e0941d7d1b0d413b9d9a0b792c34dd26 https://www.apnews.com/e0941d7d1b0d413b9d9a0b792c34dd26
- AnimalMuppet 7y agoArguably. But if you let the prisoner die while in your custody, a lot more people are going to be screaming about how evil you are to allow that, and how it's your fault that they died because you didn't protect them, and it's even more your fault because you probably wanted them dead and at least encouraged it to happen, and and and...
- mikeash 7y agoMaybe we should house these prisoners under conditions where they don’t become suicidal, then.
- Fenrisulfr 7y agoWhile I agree with humane treatment of prisoners, that's a very slippery argument. Every prison is technically inhumane enough to send some people to attempt suicide.
- danharaj 7y agoMakes you think, doesn't it?
- AnimalMuppet 7y agoWell, what's your alternative? The death penalty? Release them?
- mikeash 7y agoMake your prisons humane, don’t force-feed anyone, and accept the condemnation that occurs when one of your prisoners decides to starve himself to death anyway.
- AnimalMuppet 7y agoThat's fair. But you aren't the one I was asking. I get the impression that that wasn't danharaj's alternative.
- mikeash 7y agoI don’t see how “Makes you think, doesn't it?” would imply anything more than the comment it was in response to.
- heraclius 7y agoThe restrictions placed upon the fellow are more “capricious” in the words of the judge than necessary. Perhaps all his communications need to be read. I somehow doubt that prevention of communications by his lawyers is an important part of counter-terrorism, or that it can take more than a day or two to make sure that correspondence does not promote terrorism. And I fail to see why we should force-feed a prisoner in the first place, which is the main problem.
- anbop 7y agoIf he’s directing terrorist attacks from jail maybe the smarter move is to not force feed him.
- rtkwe 7y agoWhat anti-terrorist point is there in restricting his reading material? In what universe does 'Audacity of Hope' or any book pose a national security threat in the hands of a man who spends all but a few hours a day completely alone?
- bytematic 7y agoCrazy how there are people out there that can live with performing these acts, or "reviewing" them even. How many thousands before they are completely desensitized?
- afandian 7y agoThe "Banality of Evil" is a useful idea when trying to understand how the Nazis did what they did. It's wrong to think that it was anyone other than 'normal' human beings who have committed atrocities through the ages. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eichmann_in_Jerusalem I've never been able to bring myself to read the book.
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- hdfbdtbcdg 7y agoWhy are western nations retreating from any semblance of the moral high ground?
- moose462 7y agoIt's our moral high ground that stops us from killing the terrorist or letting him starve himself to death.
- user982 7y agoIt's your moral high ground that keeps him alive so you can torture him by forcing ground food into his rectum using the largest, most painful, and most damaging tubes available as a form of "total behavior control" (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/09/cia-report-rectal-feeding-detainees https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2014/dec/09/cia-report-r...).
- jdietrich 7y agoThat's an extremely low bar, particularly when you consider the detention conditions of Anders Breivik. Norway imprisoned Breivik in the most comfortable conditions possible; in doing so, they neutered his message. They showed that he was weak and they were strong. They took someone who could have been a far-right martyr and turned him into a pathetic figure, slowly fading into irrelevance in a gilded cage. That's what real power looks like - no fear, no anger, no hatred, just the calm machinations of a compassionate state. By choosing not to retaliate, the Norwegian government demonstrated the futility of Breivik's actions with perfect clarity. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35813470 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-35813470
- qualitator 7y agocompassionate I think you mean dispassionate. By your own words, there is a calculated effect, decoupled from the emotional aspects of radical events. Additionally, it might just be that there is no rehabilitation in the cards, and only stalemate in the equation between the two players.
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- roywiggins 7y ago> family members and attorneys in touch with SAMs prisoners can be prosecuted and incarcerated for repeating anything the inmate told them This is interesting and I'd be very curious to know what the courts have made of this kind of prior restraint. I'm not skeptical that threats of this nature have been made, but I am skeptical that such a prosecution could actually be brought- under what statute? Lawyers may be gagged somewhat, as an officer of the court, but a family member seems like a real stretch. Edit to add: here's a simple explainer on SAMs and what they do: https://ccrjustice.org/sites/default/files/attach/2017/10/SAMs%20Report.summary_0.pdf https://ccrjustice.org/sites/default/files/attach/2017/10/SA... > Prisoners under SAMs are prohibited from communicating with anyone except a few pre-approved individuals – their attorneys and immediate family members – and SAMs prohibit those individuals from repeating the prisoner’s words to anyone else. I am still awfully curious as to what possible statutory authority the DoJ could have to regulate the speech of people who aren't actually incarcerated.
- DuskStar 7y agoI imagine that it isn't actually prior restraint in the classic sense, but instead in the form of an agreement that the lawyers and family members have to sign before talking to the prisoners in question.
- mirimir 7y agoYes, I suspect that they're non-disclosure agreements. So violating them puts one in contempt of court. And punishments for contempt are whatever judges say they are.
- roywiggins 7y agoSee, that would make a least some sense. But apparently "The U.S. Attorney General has sole discretion to impose SAMs". With court imposed gag orders there's a court order from a judge. These things seem to be administrative decisions about detention conditions (the same way prisons can regulate the books prisoners can have, etc). But if so, they wouldn't ordinarily regulate the speech of people not actually in jail. I think the worst they'd be able to do is ban that person from visiting again, not actually prosecute them. How can you be in contempt of court if SAMs are at the sole discretion of the AG?
- iooi 7y agoWow, can't believe how one sided some people can be and still call themselves journalists. This is the only mention of why he is in jail: > After his conviction in 1994 on terrorism-related charges A euphemism if I ever heard one, he was directly involved in the 1993 WTC bombing [1], way to gloss over that.. I'm not justifying "torture", but it puts things in perspective. Six people died in that attack, including a pregnant woman seven months into her term. Hard to have sympathy for the perpetrators. Not to mention the similarities of a hunger strike to terrorism, since he can't harm other people he's holding a gun to his own head to force the institution to change is policies. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_A._Salameh https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_A._Salameh
- x86_64Ubuntu 7y agoWe don't demand Supermax treatment for 5 victims, or 4 or 3 so why now? And it's hard to take your lust for draconian punishment seriously when many in the US are celebrating Gallagher who is up for shooting elderly and children.
- iooi 7y ago> lust for draconian punishment That's a bit harsh, I was just pointing out that this guy is directly responsible for six deaths and it should be taken into the context of the article. > so why now? But to your main point, there's a big, big difference between a shooting from a disgruntled employee and a coordinated terrorist attack. The later is deliberately killing and creating an atmosphere of terror for political means. They intend to change US policy -- or else. Do you think countries should take these attacks in stride, and change their policies to what the terrorists want? Should the perpetrators always get the minimum sentence? Should we release them and give them visas to stay in the country? Where is the line? > These letters made three demands: an end to all US aid to Israel, an end to US diplomatic relations with Israel, and a pledge by the United States to end interference "with any of the Middle East countries' interior affairs." He stated that the attack on the World Trade Center would be merely the first of such attacks if his demands were not met. In his letters, Yousef admitted that the World Trade Center bombing was an act of terrorism, but this was justified because "the terrorism that Israel practices (which America supports) must be faced with a similar one."
- T4NG 7y agoWhy isn't there more of a highlight on Salameh's actual charges. This is grossly glossed over especially when understanding what you have to do to land oneself in a blacksite to begin with.
- MPetitt 7y ago"It’s for this reason that I didn’t ask Salameh to tell me about his crimes. The harm he caused should not be forgotten, but it must be held apart. Under international law, the right to be free from torture is inalienable and absolute—and that protects all of us."
- afandian 7y agoIt's pretty sinister that your first response is not to address the torture but "he must be guilty of something". The US has done plenty to demonstrate it will do far worse without wrongdoing by the victim.
- dtornabene 7y agoyeah, tell that to the black teenagers dragged to Homan Square in Chicago
- T4NG 7y agowhich would be exactly why I would want to know the charge's
- objectivetruth 7y agoThe charges ARE in the article, AND the author specifically mentioned why she wasn't re-hashing them more than she did. Most of those black teens at Homan Square didn't get an article at all.
- roboys 7y agoSecret prisons for citizens in 2019 Chicago? Shocking to hear about, America is truly lost. What do we do when we hear about citizen torture administered by the state? I expect the news coming out will only get worse from here.
- josefresco 7y agoSetting aside this specific situation. Let's say you run a prison, and an inmate goes on a "hunger strike" for a reason that's important to them. What should the prison operators do? Force feed the inmate, negotiate, give into their demands, or let them die? Let's say you try to negotiate, but the inmate is making unreasonable demands or you are not willing to meet their demands, then what?
- nabla9 7y agoPeople should be able to control their bodies. If you don't want to eat. Nobody should force feed you.
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- InterimNew 7y agoI'm not trying to muddy the waters on this issue or take a consequentialist perspective, but how is this materially different from someone rejecting oxygen? The moral response seems to be to intervene rather than let someone commit suicide, regardless of how long it takes.
- DanielBMarkham 7y agoI'm firmly in the "you own your body" camp. But we have to admit that ok, hanging yourself in your cell should be fine, because of this logic. The reason it's not is political: looks a lot better to have somebody run a story "those horrible prisons are making prisoners eat!" than it is "two-hundred inmates supposedly hung themselves last year because they had the right to" This is a political battle the prisoner is having with the jail: I am unhappy and ready to die. Make my life just a tiny bit more bearable or I will die in a way that makes you look bad. I could go into a long rant about all the problems of the American system of jurisprudence. There are tons. We've lost our way on the reasons for prisons and the purpose of incarceration, amongst a lot of other related matters. I still think these folks should have absolute control over their bodies. If it looks bad? Well, it looks bad for a very good reason. Political systems exist for political reasons. People forget that and ascribe all sorts of things to these systems they never deserved even when they were working well. We need a lot of reform. I wish these folks the best of luck.
- module0000 7y agoThis is mortifying and humiliating. It makes me ashamed to be associated(by being a citizen and armed services veteran) with the country. I suppose I could speak out and try to change things...but I fear that doing so would ensure a similar fate for myself; rotting away in a secret prison, while my family is threatened with prosecution if they talk about it. It's all happy times here in the USA, anyone that will tell you otherwise has already been imprisoned and/or re-educated.
- plandis 7y agoDo you have any proof that: 1.) The US is imprisoning people who speak out against bad things happening in the US? 2.) Any proof of citizens being forced into re-education facilities?
- anbop 7y agoWho in a US prison is there for speaking out and trying to change things? Name one.
- hdfbdtbcdg 7y agoManning is currently in prison for refusing the illegal attempt to abuse a grand jury to make her testify when the grand jury has already made a charge and should have no further role.
- jtms 7y agocan someone speak to the level of credibility of this site/organization? I have never heard of them before.