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I think calling this "offensive" is a bit silly. Pushing everything into the box of "marginalized minority oppressed by uncaring majority" is getting old. In

I think calling this "offensive" is a bit silly. Pushing everything into the box of "marginalized minority oppressed by uncaring majority" is getting old. In our society, waking up early-ish is advantageous. And not just in terms of work. It's nice to be awake in the morning when everything is still. Mornings are peaceful and beautiful. I've always been a "night owl" and I could come in at 10 or 11 and work until 6-7 if I wanted to - no one I work with cares as long as I'm communicative and get things done. But adjusting my sleep schedule and getting in around 8-8:30 (wake at 6:30-7) has improved my quality of life. I'm also most productive before noon. Getting sun seems important. I have a Hacker News Health Theory (TM) about melanin content: why would human skin color vary so reliably based on distance from equator if sun wasn't really, really important? I think that, maybe, getting enough sun is much more important to our health than we realize.

ScottBurson 7y ago
> I've always been a "night owl" and I could come in at 10 or 11 and work until 6-7 if I wanted to That's not much of a night owl. My preference would be to work until 1 or 2am, then sleep until 10 or 11. The middle of the night is also peaceful and beautiful.
Zenst 7y ago
Yes pushing everything into a box is getting old, bit like sleep patterns being pushed into a box. Who said night owls are the minority when it is not a binary as that. Would 49% be classed a minority compared to 51% or would 1% be more suitable in such binary classifications. The whole minority/majority mentality in itself oversimplifies and as such dismisses many an issue in society. Whilst in many instances you may be right, it is not the case for all instances. Surly it would be far better for all to embrace night owls and with that make morning commutes less stressful, polluting and time saving by forcing some arbitrary time upon the entire populus and in effect forcing those who do not conform to self-medicate, so they can fit in and also join in this mad race to work at the same time as everybody else. You can equally argue that workers in some hemispheres miss out on daylight as they are stuck in an office during 9-5 in the winter when that is the only time the sun is out. Those working later would at least get some sun exposure during their off-peak commute into work as opposed to getting no sun upon their commute into and out of work. Speaking from a UK TZ perspective and winter sunrise/sunset times. I will also say, traveling off-peak is so much quicker, less stressful that the impact upon work is measurable. I'm also a fan of polyphasic sleep and that helps in many situations in which an early meeting/appointment is unavoidable. But gets down to what works best for you, not everybody else and so much more could be solved by changing working hours mentality within companies more than changing the people. Again, thinking better quality of life commutes into work and all those positive side effects that can be gained from embracing differences in sleep patterns over what we have currently.
eljimmy 7y ago
DSPD isn't something you can fix by "adjusting your sleep schedule", it is akin to a const declaration in your biological clock's genetic programming.
- rmah 7y ago
  Could you fix it by moving time zones? If not, why not?
  - Zenst 7y ago
    Only briefly, you would have to regularly travel east, for me it worked out that I'd travel around the globe every 9 weeks or so, just to keep the 9-5 momentum. Though it is one of those instances in which you are effectively using your late night sleep phase in conjunction with jet-lag to maintain those regular hours. So technically, yes, but only briefly and you would then have to repeat once your natural rhythm caught up with you. So about 2 weeks and then have to move again.
  - tasty_freeze 7y ago
    I didn't move time zones to fix it, but it has helped, but probably not in the way you intend. I work remotely, from home, two time zones ahead of the company I work for. They start work at 9am, and I start work at 11am my time. :-)
  - iak8god 7y ago
    No, because people's biological clocks are synchronized with the rising and setting of the sun, not with some universal clock time.
PhasmaFelis 7y ago
> I have a Hacker News Health Theory (TM) about melanin content: why would human skin color vary so reliably based on distance from equator if sun wasn't really, really important? Can you expand on that? All I get from it is that protecting yourself from UV is really important, but producing extra melanin is somewhat costly, so evolution selects for just as much melanin as your environment requires, no more.
- __blockcipher__ 7y ago
  Vitamin D is the missing link you forgot. The tradeoff is vitamin d (+ nitric oxide) versus UV damage
danaliv 7y ago
You're teetering on the brink of an epiphany there with the phrase "in our society." Being a night owl wasn't a problem until we built a world that didn't include us. The problem isn't night owls. It's the insistence from others that everyone be exactly the same, inborn traits be damned. So yeah, it's offensive. Also, imagine being someone whose natural body clock is a 3-5am bedtime and 12-2pm wake time. You've adjusted your clock by a couple hours, but some folks are being told to make 6-8 hour adjustments. And for what? To accommodate a refusal to accept that not everyone is the same.
- navigatesol 7y ago
  >The problem isn't night owls. It's the insistence from others that everyone be exactly the same, inborn traits be damned. So yeah, it's offensive. How is it "offensive"? No one is forcing you to live any specific way, but if you want to fit in with what "society" has deemed "normal", then you have to follow the norms and rules. Thinking the rest of the world should cater to your personal circumstances is offensive. Why should they adapt to you, and not vice versa? Where did this entitlement come from, that not only should someone provide you with a job, but also that you should get to decide when and how you'll perform it? If the "real world" doesn't jibe with you it's your responsibility to find a place where you fit. There are lots of things I don't like about the modern rat race, and I adapt.
asdf21 7y ago
>Mornings are peaceful and beautiful. Tell that to my 1.5 hour morning commute.
Aaargh20318 7y ago
> Pushing everything into the box of "marginalized minority oppressed by uncaring majority" is getting old. The thing is, we’re not a minority at all. There’s a large percentage of people who just aren’t morning people. If anything it’s a minority forcing their preferences on everyone else.

ScottBurson 7y ago

> I've always been a "night owl" and I could come in at 10 or 11 and work until 6-7 if I wanted to That's not much of a night owl. My preference would be to work until 1 or 2am, then sleep until 10 or 11. The middle of the night is also peaceful and beautiful.

Zenst 7y ago

Yes pushing everything into a box is getting old, bit like sleep patterns being pushed into a box. Who said night owls are the minority when it is not a binary as that. Would 49% be classed a minority compared to 51% or would 1% be more suitable in such binary classifications. The whole minority/majority mentality in itself oversimplifies and as such dismisses many an issue in society. Whilst in many instances you may be right, it is not the case for all instances. Surly it would be far better for all to embrace night owls and with that make morning commutes less stressful, polluting and time saving by forcing some arbitrary time upon the entire populus and in effect forcing those who do not conform to self-medicate, so they can fit in and also join in this mad race to work at the same time as everybody else. You can equally argue that workers in some hemispheres miss out on daylight as they are stuck in an office during 9-5 in the winter when that is the only time the sun is out. Those working later would at least get some sun exposure during their off-peak commute into work as opposed to getting no sun upon their commute into and out of work. Speaking from a UK TZ perspective and winter sunrise/sunset times. I will also say, traveling off-peak is so much quicker, less stressful that the impact upon work is measurable. I'm also a fan of polyphasic sleep and that helps in many situations in which an early meeting/appointment is unavoidable. But gets down to what works best for you, not everybody else and so much more could be solved by changing working hours mentality within companies more than changing the people. Again, thinking better quality of life commutes into work and all those positive side effects that can be gained from embracing differences in sleep patterns over what we have currently.

eljimmy 7y ago

DSPD isn't something you can fix by "adjusting your sleep schedule", it is akin to a const declaration in your biological clock's genetic programming.

rmah 7y ago
Could you fix it by moving time zones? If not, why not?
- Zenst 7y ago
  Only briefly, you would have to regularly travel east, for me it worked out that I'd travel around the globe every 9 weeks or so, just to keep the 9-5 momentum. Though it is one of those instances in which you are effectively using your late night sleep phase in conjunction with jet-lag to maintain those regular hours. So technically, yes, but only briefly and you would then have to repeat once your natural rhythm caught up with you. So about 2 weeks and then have to move again.
- tasty_freeze 7y ago
  I didn't move time zones to fix it, but it has helped, but probably not in the way you intend. I work remotely, from home, two time zones ahead of the company I work for. They start work at 9am, and I start work at 11am my time. :-)
- iak8god 7y ago
  No, because people's biological clocks are synchronized with the rising and setting of the sun, not with some universal clock time.

PhasmaFelis 7y ago

> I have a Hacker News Health Theory (TM) about melanin content: why would human skin color vary so reliably based on distance from equator if sun wasn't really, really important? Can you expand on that? All I get from it is that protecting yourself from UV is really important, but producing extra melanin is somewhat costly, so evolution selects for just as much melanin as your environment requires, no more.

__blockcipher__ 7y ago
Vitamin D is the missing link you forgot. The tradeoff is vitamin d (+ nitric oxide) versus UV damage

danaliv 7y ago

You're teetering on the brink of an epiphany there with the phrase "in our society." Being a night owl wasn't a problem until we built a world that didn't include us. The problem isn't night owls. It's the insistence from others that everyone be exactly the same, inborn traits be damned. So yeah, it's offensive. Also, imagine being someone whose natural body clock is a 3-5am bedtime and 12-2pm wake time. You've adjusted your clock by a couple hours, but some folks are being told to make 6-8 hour adjustments. And for what? To accommodate a refusal to accept that not everyone is the same.

navigatesol 7y ago
>The problem isn't night owls. It's the insistence from others that everyone be exactly the same, inborn traits be damned. So yeah, it's offensive. How is it "offensive"? No one is forcing you to live any specific way, but if you want to fit in with what "society" has deemed "normal", then you have to follow the norms and rules. Thinking the rest of the world should cater to your personal circumstances is offensive. Why should they adapt to you, and not vice versa? Where did this entitlement come from, that not only should someone provide you with a job, but also that you should get to decide when and how you'll perform it? If the "real world" doesn't jibe with you it's your responsibility to find a place where you fit. There are lots of things I don't like about the modern rat race, and I adapt.

asdf21 7y ago

>Mornings are peaceful and beautiful. Tell that to my 1.5 hour morning commute.

Aaargh20318 7y ago

> Pushing everything into the box of "marginalized minority oppressed by uncaring majority" is getting old. The thing is, we’re not a minority at all. There’s a large percentage of people who just aren’t morning people. If anything it’s a minority forcing their preferences on everyone else.