5 ms·

i think it’s a principle thing. for 90% of people, they’ll use it with default settings. seems like OP doesn’t want to support the usage of those default servic

i think it’s a principle thing. for 90% of people, they’ll use it with default settings. seems like OP doesn’t want to support the usage of those default services in general (say, google search default?), so supporting a product that implicitly advances their usage is unattractive.

sjwright 7y ago
It's a principle thing? No, it's a train wreck. It's a sure-fire recipe for cutting the installed base of Firefox in half overnight. Using your example and estimate, the 90% of people who use default settings will install Firefox and then immediately conclude it's broken because it can't search the internet. So they'll just switch back to Chrome and never try Firefox again. Remember, these are the "default settings" people. They're not going to change the default settings. And with the OP's prescription for "no predefined search engines," there won't be a "Google" setting anyway even if they did try. Train wreck.
- prophesi 7y ago
  This is an oddly vehement response to a lot of sane defaults. One simple solution to this "train wreck" would be for Firefox to simply link users directly to the search engine settings if they try to search without one set.
  - sjwright 7y ago
    That’s not a simple solution because the OP is not just calling for the removal of a default search engine, but also calling for "no predefined search engines," so there will be nothing in settings to choose from.
    - prophesi 7y ago
      My point is that you can have sane defaults without sacrificing usability. I'm sure with a few minutes of brainstorming, you could find a solution that both educates the user on why a predefined search engine is a bad practice, and direct them to resources to make an educated-choice on which one they'll choose.
      - chc 7y ago
        What you're describing is a terrible user experience. The only people who would want that are people who don't need the education. The people who need the education don't want to spend money on software just for it to lecture them when they launch it and force them to make a bunch of decisions. This would literally be paying Firefox to make you do extra work.
        prophesi 7y ago
        True, which is why I go back to my original comment of just having it take you to the search engine settings, with the different services listed out. It's a reasonable compromise of being honest & sane without much friction on the user's end. I know you're claiming that's not what the OP is calling for, but we're literally just going on four words from them. Regardless, "train wreck" is an over-exaggeration for either of our assumptions.
        sjwright 7y ago
        The OP is what I responded to. That idea is what I described as a train-wreck. And I stand by it. I agree it's not a train-wreck to have your browser offer the choice of Google, Ask Jeeves or Lycos upon performing the first search. What this is is pointless. Nearly everyone doesn't care and will just reflexively select Google. The remaining people will have changed the setting themselves anyway.
        prophesi 7y ago
        Not pointless. A step in the right direction. And a step we should all take in the software we develop, because defaults matter.
        sjwright 7y ago
        And your opinion trumps mine.
- fouc 7y ago
  He's talking about the PAID version of firefox when he asks for "no default settings". How would that cut the installed base?
  - sjwright 7y ago
    I've got no problem if he wants to lobby Mozilla to offer Firefox: Weinzierl Edition alongside the standard one. I do have a problem whenever someone speaks like their specific array of demands are more important than the quiet people who may actually prefer the status quo.

sjwright 7y ago

It's a principle thing? No, it's a train wreck. It's a sure-fire recipe for cutting the installed base of Firefox in half overnight. Using your example and estimate, the 90% of people who use default settings will install Firefox and then immediately conclude it's broken because it can't search the internet. So they'll just switch back to Chrome and never try Firefox again. Remember, these are the "default settings" people. They're not going to change the default settings. And with the OP's prescription for "no predefined search engines," there won't be a "Google" setting anyway even if they did try. Train wreck.

prophesi 7y ago
This is an oddly vehement response to a lot of sane defaults. One simple solution to this "train wreck" would be for Firefox to simply link users directly to the search engine settings if they try to search without one set.
- sjwright 7y ago
  That’s not a simple solution because the OP is not just calling for the removal of a default search engine, but also calling for "no predefined search engines," so there will be nothing in settings to choose from.
  - prophesi 7y ago
    My point is that you can have sane defaults without sacrificing usability. I'm sure with a few minutes of brainstorming, you could find a solution that both educates the user on why a predefined search engine is a bad practice, and direct them to resources to make an educated-choice on which one they'll choose.
    - chc 7y ago
      What you're describing is a terrible user experience. The only people who would want that are people who don't need the education. The people who need the education don't want to spend money on software just for it to lecture them when they launch it and force them to make a bunch of decisions. This would literally be paying Firefox to make you do extra work.
      - prophesi 7y ago
        True, which is why I go back to my original comment of just having it take you to the search engine settings, with the different services listed out. It's a reasonable compromise of being honest & sane without much friction on the user's end. I know you're claiming that's not what the OP is calling for, but we're literally just going on four words from them. Regardless, "train wreck" is an over-exaggeration for either of our assumptions.
        sjwright 7y ago
        The OP is what I responded to. That idea is what I described as a train-wreck. And I stand by it. I agree it's not a train-wreck to have your browser offer the choice of Google, Ask Jeeves or Lycos upon performing the first search. What this is is pointless. Nearly everyone doesn't care and will just reflexively select Google. The remaining people will have changed the setting themselves anyway.
        prophesi 7y ago
        Not pointless. A step in the right direction. And a step we should all take in the software we develop, because defaults matter.
        sjwright 7y ago
        And your opinion trumps mine.
fouc 7y ago
He's talking about the PAID version of firefox when he asks for "no default settings". How would that cut the installed base?
- sjwright 7y ago
  I've got no problem if he wants to lobby Mozilla to offer Firefox: Weinzierl Edition alongside the standard one. I do have a problem whenever someone speaks like their specific array of demands are more important than the quiet people who may actually prefer the status quo.