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I agree with you until you bring up gender. Girls also talk about how boys are idiots. Women's remarks can also bring down men or uplift them. Boys also think t

by wvh 7y ago

I agree with you until you bring up gender. Girls also talk about how boys are idiots. Women's remarks can also bring down men or uplift them. Boys also think they're not good enough. Where I'm from (North-West Europe), I can't say there's a black and white difference between boys' and girls' behaviour or perceived academic ability. It's just that (especially young) women seem more susceptible to social pressure and the need to fit in, especially with other women. Teens' dreams and ideas often get shot down by peers, parents and even teachers. I'm not defending bad behaviour; I just think that pointing at a few loudmouthed boys and claiming that there's the reason for the gap is pretty disingenuous. Certainly the majority of women I know would not give a lack of intelligence as the reason they didn't go to study CS.

areoform 7y ago
As your comment is the strongest iteration of this line of thought (which seems to be shared by a lot of people). I'll reply to it and explain why. > I agree with you until you bring up gender. Girls also talk about how boys are idiots. Women's remarks can also bring down men or uplift them One is not like the other. Teenage female peer dynamics are heavily dominated by corumination and is directed heavily inwards. When girls bully other girls, they do it indirectly. It is more psychologically directed and intensely focused on gossip and disguised status seeking behavior. It is rarely directly confrontational, and I have rarely - if ever - heard girls talk about men's compentence in some general regard that way. It's more like, "that guys such an idiot. He said <> and <> to me. Can you believe that?" Teenage boys on the other hand are manifestly different. I am not an expert on male teenage behavior, but judging from the fact that the vast majority of teens sending epithets to other people online or on social media are overwhelmingly likely to be teenaged boys, I would suggest that the male pattern is aggressive and an overt dominance game. Women don't do well in that environment. Boys often do and say things that are bewildering for anyone socialized as female to interact with. > It's just that (especially young) women seem more susceptible to social pressure and the need to fit in, especially with other women. Yes, female social dynamics are heavily about inclusion and exclusion. A welcoming and safe environment matters a lot more to women than it does to men. > I just think that pointing at a few loudmouthed boys and claiming that there's the reason for the gap is pretty disingenuous I have not made that claim. I am just talking about my experience. Your mileage may vary.
- 0815test 7y ago
  > Yes, female social dynamics are heavily about inclusion and exclusion. A welcoming and safe environment matters a lot more to women than it does to men. You're basically saying that males are more resilient and assertive - this doesn't mean that females can't "shoot down" boys, however indirectly. When you're constantly hearing about "toxic masculinity" being the problem and all males are being equated to toxic, entitled narcissists who might turn "creepy" on you at any moment, are you sure that this isn't a drag to the average guy? Guys care about being included socially, too. They can deal with overt hostility if they have to, but let's not pretend that they'll be happy about it.
- macspoofing 7y ago
  >I have rarely - if ever - heard girls talk about men's compentence in some general regard that In middle-school and high-school I have never heard talk about girls being less competent than boys. You couldn't. Girls did better at school. Girls were Lisa Simpson, and boys were Bart Simpson. If there was a stereotype, that's what it was. If you went to a remedial class at my school(s), it would have been 3/4 boys. The vast majority of suspensions were given to boys. Maybe the schools I went to were the exception, but no way could this be a singular experience. >Women don't do well in that environment. Boys often do and say things that are bewildering for anyone socialized as female to interact with. I feel you're making generalizations that don't reflect reality. >A welcoming and safe environment matters a lot more to women than it does to men. It matters to everyone. Who doesn't want a workplace that is welcoming and safe?
- tuesdayrain 7y ago
  I think if the gender stereotypes are as accurate as you imply they are, then the current state of women in tech is pretty much at its natural equilibrium (as in heavily male-dominated).

by wvh 7y ago

areoform 7y ago

As your comment is the strongest iteration of this line of thought (which seems to be shared by a lot of people). I'll reply to it and explain why. > I agree with you until you bring up gender. Girls also talk about how boys are idiots. Women's remarks can also bring down men or uplift them One is not like the other. Teenage female peer dynamics are heavily dominated by corumination and is directed heavily inwards. When girls bully other girls, they do it indirectly. It is more psychologically directed and intensely focused on gossip and disguised status seeking behavior. It is rarely directly confrontational, and I have rarely - if ever - heard girls talk about men's compentence in some general regard that way. It's more like, "that guys such an idiot. He said <> and <> to me. Can you believe that?" Teenage boys on the other hand are manifestly different. I am not an expert on male teenage behavior, but judging from the fact that the vast majority of teens sending epithets to other people online or on social media are overwhelmingly likely to be teenaged boys, I would suggest that the male pattern is aggressive and an overt dominance game. Women don't do well in that environment. Boys often do and say things that are bewildering for anyone socialized as female to interact with. > It's just that (especially young) women seem more susceptible to social pressure and the need to fit in, especially with other women. Yes, female social dynamics are heavily about inclusion and exclusion. A welcoming and safe environment matters a lot more to women than it does to men. > I just think that pointing at a few loudmouthed boys and claiming that there's the reason for the gap is pretty disingenuous I have not made that claim. I am just talking about my experience. Your mileage may vary.

0815test 7y ago
> Yes, female social dynamics are heavily about inclusion and exclusion. A welcoming and safe environment matters a lot more to women than it does to men. You're basically saying that males are more resilient and assertive - this doesn't mean that females can't "shoot down" boys, however indirectly. When you're constantly hearing about "toxic masculinity" being the problem and all males are being equated to toxic, entitled narcissists who might turn "creepy" on you at any moment, are you sure that this isn't a drag to the average guy? Guys care about being included socially, too. They can deal with overt hostility if they have to, but let's not pretend that they'll be happy about it.
macspoofing 7y ago
>I have rarely - if ever - heard girls talk about men's compentence in some general regard that In middle-school and high-school I have never heard talk about girls being less competent than boys. You couldn't. Girls did better at school. Girls were Lisa Simpson, and boys were Bart Simpson. If there was a stereotype, that's what it was. If you went to a remedial class at my school(s), it would have been 3/4 boys. The vast majority of suspensions were given to boys. Maybe the schools I went to were the exception, but no way could this be a singular experience. >Women don't do well in that environment. Boys often do and say things that are bewildering for anyone socialized as female to interact with. I feel you're making generalizations that don't reflect reality. >A welcoming and safe environment matters a lot more to women than it does to men. It matters to everyone. Who doesn't want a workplace that is welcoming and safe?
tuesdayrain 7y ago
I think if the gender stereotypes are as accurate as you imply they are, then the current state of women in tech is pretty much at its natural equilibrium (as in heavily male-dominated).