5 ms·

Maybe Spain (of all places) is super-progressive, but I can't recall a single instance of anyone saying anything similar to "Women can't code" or "Women can't d

Maybe Spain (of all places) is super-progressive, but I can't recall a single instance of anyone saying anything similar to "Women can't code" or "Women can't do math". In fact, for most of my educational life the "top student of the class" has been female, even through engineering and maths. Am I some kind of odd outlier? is the experience on other countries different? I'm genouinly curious.

rsynnott 7y ago
I think this stuff actually is pretty regional/local; participation rates by women are much better in some non-Anglosphere countries. Edit: It can also become weirdly specific; participation in computer science and physics remain quite low here (Ireland), say, but I believe most chemistry undergrads are now women.
- 0815test 7y ago
  It's a bit puzzling/weird because as it turns out, participation rates in technical fields tend to be "better" in places where women are comparatively worse off, and vice versa. Many people think that these "better" participation rates don't actually reflect anything like a full equalization in underlying interest, and that can still be a problem for women in the longer run.
- xondono 7y ago
  I was referring way more the prevalence of those type of comments through education. I don't think participation rates are very different than other countries. From my experience (I have a rather weird educational path, so I have anecdotal data on engineering, math & physics undergraduate courses). Engineering and physics have similar ratios around 10% to 20%, while maths is way higher around 50/50 (the rates for the classes I was taking were actually higher, but that's another story). Chemistry here also is mostly women. The only hypothesis that fits my (admittedly anecdotal) experience, is that there's quite a difference in the interests of men and women, and that the country differences in enrollment are more a symptom of how the curricula are structured. For example, Spain does not have CS degrees structured like in the anglosphere, so depending the subfield you intend to work on, you should go to engineering instead. Most of the women I met at engineering would have chosen a CS degree over engineering if there was one. I have seen stark differences too in physics, were the majority of women there wanted to pursue pure theoretical physics with pretty much none of them showing interest in applied physics.
gdy 7y ago
It's the same with Iran: "70% of Iran’s science and engineering students are women" [0] [0]https://www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.forbes.com/sites/amyguttman/2015/12/09/set-to-take-over-tech-70-of-irans-science-and-engineering-students-are-women/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=%D0%A1%20%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%82%D0%B0%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fsites%2Famyguttman%2F2015%2F12%2F09%2Fset-to-take-over-tech-70-of-irans-science-and-engineering-students-are-women%2F https://www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.forbes.com...
- faissaloo 7y ago
  More conservative countries are known for having lots of women in STEM though, take a look at Saudi
  - gdy 7y ago
    Haven't expected that.
wvh 7y ago
Same for Northern Europe. Most of the smart kids in high school were girls. Some went on to study science, but I don't think any of them were interested in computers or went for CS degrees. In fact I know way more women with math and other science degrees; I am not sure why those women did not show interest in specifically engineering or CS, which do have low numbers of female students. Perhaps those fields are perceived as not social, introverted, not warm or inviting; but I feel it would probably be a bad idea to market them as such and force a lot of young women into engineering and CS out of some misguided principle rather than their own future happiness. Of course there are certain men that make claims about women's ability to do math, but in my experience those are often men that clearly don't possess that ability themselves... Their opinion might be mostly detrimental to their own offspring rather than to society as a whole. Those tend not to be people whose boys attend university either.
- bonoboTP 7y ago
  I don't know where this non-welcoming stereotype comes from. CompSci is not the same as gamer culture or techies. In fact, in my Hungarian Uni, there were many people who had liked tinkering and modding their computer (without really knowing what the parts did or what the numbers meant) for the newest games and knew how to set up routers etc thought that CS is surely what they should study. Many quickly dropped out when they realized there's so much math involved and it's not all about creating apps etc. So so many complaints about who needs math, why learn these old topics, why not the newest tech which you actually use in real jobs (there were electives covering those). Those who survived this filter tend to be less of the tech fan boy culture. Of course being a girl had a special status, there's just no way around that when they are below 10%. There were many cases when a class had only 1 or 2 girls, or I remember when the game design class had their first ever female student, whom I knew. She didn't recall any inappropriate things said to her. But you have to have a really strong interest in the topic to accept being the only girl in so many situations and groups. Just "going with the flow" won't carry you there. This whole thing must have some deeper roots than what it's being reduced to today, because the effect comes up in many countries even before US influence became this strong. In fact in the former Eastern Bloc countries there was a lot of encouragement for women getting educated and getting more traditionally male jobs.
growlist 7y ago
Studies show that when it comes to IQ, women cluster around the mean. As you go upwards to higher levels of IQ you find fewer and fewer women compared to the number of men. Somewhat debatable whether this correlates to achievement or exactly what IQ means though.

rsynnott 7y ago

I think this stuff actually is pretty regional/local; participation rates by women are much better in some non-Anglosphere countries. Edit: It can also become weirdly specific; participation in computer science and physics remain quite low here (Ireland), say, but I believe most chemistry undergrads are now women.

0815test 7y ago
It's a bit puzzling/weird because as it turns out, participation rates in technical fields tend to be "better" in places where women are comparatively worse off, and vice versa. Many people think that these "better" participation rates don't actually reflect anything like a full equalization in underlying interest, and that can still be a problem for women in the longer run.
xondono 7y ago
I was referring way more the prevalence of those type of comments through education. I don't think participation rates are very different than other countries. From my experience (I have a rather weird educational path, so I have anecdotal data on engineering, math & physics undergraduate courses). Engineering and physics have similar ratios around 10% to 20%, while maths is way higher around 50/50 (the rates for the classes I was taking were actually higher, but that's another story). Chemistry here also is mostly women. The only hypothesis that fits my (admittedly anecdotal) experience, is that there's quite a difference in the interests of men and women, and that the country differences in enrollment are more a symptom of how the curricula are structured. For example, Spain does not have CS degrees structured like in the anglosphere, so depending the subfield you intend to work on, you should go to engineering instead. Most of the women I met at engineering would have chosen a CS degree over engineering if there was one. I have seen stark differences too in physics, were the majority of women there wanted to pursue pure theoretical physics with pretty much none of them showing interest in applied physics.

gdy 7y ago

It's the same with Iran: "70% of Iran’s science and engineering students are women" [0] [0]https://www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.forbes.com/sites/amyguttman/2015/12/09/set-to-take-over-tech-70-of-irans-science-and-engineering-students-are-women/amp/?amp_js_v=a2&amp_gsa=1&usqp=mq331AQCCAE%3D#referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&amp_tf=%D0%A1%20%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%B9%D1%82%D0%B0%20%251%24s&ampshare=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.forbes.com%2Fsites%2Famyguttman%2F2015%2F12%2F09%2Fset-to-take-over-tech-70-of-irans-science-and-engineering-students-are-women%2F https://www-forbes-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/www.forbes.com...

faissaloo 7y ago
More conservative countries are known for having lots of women in STEM though, take a look at Saudi
- gdy 7y ago
  Haven't expected that.

wvh 7y ago

Same for Northern Europe. Most of the smart kids in high school were girls. Some went on to study science, but I don't think any of them were interested in computers or went for CS degrees. In fact I know way more women with math and other science degrees; I am not sure why those women did not show interest in specifically engineering or CS, which do have low numbers of female students. Perhaps those fields are perceived as not social, introverted, not warm or inviting; but I feel it would probably be a bad idea to market them as such and force a lot of young women into engineering and CS out of some misguided principle rather than their own future happiness. Of course there are certain men that make claims about women's ability to do math, but in my experience those are often men that clearly don't possess that ability themselves... Their opinion might be mostly detrimental to their own offspring rather than to society as a whole. Those tend not to be people whose boys attend university either.

bonoboTP 7y ago
I don't know where this non-welcoming stereotype comes from. CompSci is not the same as gamer culture or techies. In fact, in my Hungarian Uni, there were many people who had liked tinkering and modding their computer (without really knowing what the parts did or what the numbers meant) for the newest games and knew how to set up routers etc thought that CS is surely what they should study. Many quickly dropped out when they realized there's so much math involved and it's not all about creating apps etc. So so many complaints about who needs math, why learn these old topics, why not the newest tech which you actually use in real jobs (there were electives covering those). Those who survived this filter tend to be less of the tech fan boy culture. Of course being a girl had a special status, there's just no way around that when they are below 10%. There were many cases when a class had only 1 or 2 girls, or I remember when the game design class had their first ever female student, whom I knew. She didn't recall any inappropriate things said to her. But you have to have a really strong interest in the topic to accept being the only girl in so many situations and groups. Just "going with the flow" won't carry you there. This whole thing must have some deeper roots than what it's being reduced to today, because the effect comes up in many countries even before US influence became this strong. In fact in the former Eastern Bloc countries there was a lot of encouragement for women getting educated and getting more traditionally male jobs.

growlist 7y ago

Studies show that when it comes to IQ, women cluster around the mean. As you go upwards to higher levels of IQ you find fewer and fewer women compared to the number of men. Somewhat debatable whether this correlates to achievement or exactly what IQ means though.