7 ms·

It is hard to do the things you love when you aren't wanted. Setting aside the statistics for a moment, imagine being a teenage girl and overhearing boys talk a

• Doubl 7y ago
  Everyone gets knocked down and women are just as good at doing the knocking down.
  • jakubp 7y ago
    The point is we've identified gender is used to knock people down a lot, that this particular angle seems to have little basis in fact, and so are trying to make people aware to stop this particular angle. If we find more systematic ways in which people are getting knocked down, we should probably work on those, too.
    • Doubl 7y ago
      The cure today, which is the enforcement of a set of beliefs on pain of shunning or job loss, is worse than the disease. For example the Connie St Louis fiasco
      • jakubp 7y ago
        Not familiar with Connie St Louis. I see a twitter channel by that name. What happened? Curious to read a bit more, any pointers?
        • Doubl 7y ago
          https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jun/23/stop-defending-tim-hunt-brian-cox-richard-dawkins https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/201...
    • 0815test 7y ago
      > gender is used to knock people down a lot "Toxic masculinity" says hi. It's definitely a two-way street!
      • tuesdayrain 7y ago
        "Toxic masculinity" refers to a subset of masculinity that is harmful, e.g. saying things such as "you're not man enough to do x" to peer pressure someone. I feel like 90% of arguments surrounding that term are between people who interpret the definition differently.
        • belorn 7y ago
          It similar to when people talk about illegal immigrants. One group refers to a subset of immigrants, while the other interpret it as an attack on all immigrants and thus racism. They are very poor words if the intention is to communicate and find agreement on each topic.
          • 0815test 7y ago
            Ironically, the common attitude among some people is that "racism doesn't apply" to the male gender, because they're "toxic" and "hold all the power" anyway. Which sure does strike me as a fallacy of begging the question, but meh, whatever. Some people will never try to seriously change their mind; I don't view this as something that could be "fixed" in any way, and I respect free speech even when it doesn't provide me with an immediate advantage; so why should I even be expected to complain? What's there to complain about?
• DogLover_ 7y ago
  True, but it is no different for boys these days. Not wanted by teachers and they see that girls just get better grades leaving many uninspired to pursuit greater.
  • gumby 7y ago
    As the father of a son it doesn’t look at all like things have gotten worse for boys since I was a student.
• layoutIfNeeded 7y ago
  Strange, when I was a kid adults had the opposite attitude towards us. Boys were considered inherently mischievous, prone to cheating or making shortcuts, and always up to no good, while girls were considered rule-abiding, smart and hard-working.
  • watwut 7y ago
    These two actually coexist happily, somehow. Boys are simultaneously assumed prone to cheating or making shortcuts, and always up to no good and better at math etc. Girls are simultaneously rule-abiding, smart and hard-working, but also a bit dumber and not for math and lazy princesses. Also, girls are more social and better at relationships, but also cant have by gender good relationship among them as they are destined to be basically bitches. Boys have totally better relationships among them, but they of course just cant be without physically bullying each other which somehow does not suggest that something is wrong with relationships.
    • macspoofing 7y ago
      You're saying that OPs perspective is wrong? Because that was the implicit perception in my friend and familial circle. Between friends, cousins and siblings, the boys were by and large fuck-ups and girls were responsible. Almost every girl I knew went to university, whereas (maybe) half the boys did. Most in my circle did well in life, but the ones that didn't were guys. Things just aren't that simple, and there is tendency of only highlighting these 'microaggressions' suffered by young girls. I don't dismiss that it happens, but growing up sucks for everybody and these indignities are suffered by everyone. And it doesn't end with school, when I started working I went out to some trade-shows as a technical resources with a young (under-30) sales guy. We got no respect from the 50+ year old gray beards in our industry. As in, we, and especially him, got overtly disrespected because of our inexperience and youth. And when you're young, you always feel like you're behind (because you are), and you're desperately trying to push forward and gain recognition, respect and acceptance and you really feel the small daily indignities, from the meeting you weren't invited to, to project you aren't on, to your ideas being ignored (not even dismissed, just ignored), to simply not getting the credibility or respect or recognition you feel you deserve.
• lruor 7y ago
  >imagine being a teenage girl and overhearing boys talk about how girls are dumb What do you think girls think and say of boys? This is just stupid (and incorrect) victimism, directed at a gender, when the other one acts the same. Someone using that argument is either 1) completely unaware of the experiences of the other gender or 2) being dishonest.
  • jakubp 7y ago
    Not sure what culture you are from, but in Poland at least I have almost never heard girls (or anyone!) say anything particularly bad of that sort to boys, but I sure have heard said a lot to girls. There's definitely still a strong 'boyish' culture where boys can say almost anything they like and it's OK, but girls (for whatever reason) won't. It's not about who's better - it's about what we let people get away with. Also it's not about thinking. Thinking is the ultimate change you want, but we can't see and know what people around us think, but we can still try to enact standards of reasonable, gentle (non-violent if you will) communication.
    • ergo14 7y ago
      I'm also from same country, and I have seen both genders call other stupid when I was a teen. I have very rarely encountered any hostility towards women in professional environment though. I you hear that a lot in your environemnt - maybe its time to speak up against it and/or change it for something better.
      • jakubp 7y ago
        Interesting. I wonder if we had different experiences, or was I blind to something done _to_ boys. Something to ponder.
        • ergo14 7y ago
          Honestly, I have no idea.
    • bonoboTP 7y ago
• xondono 7y ago
  Maybe Spain (of all places) is super-progressive, but I can't recall a single instance of anyone saying anything similar to "Women can't code" or "Women can't do math". In fact, for most of my educational life the "top student of the class" has been female, even through engineering and maths. Am I some kind of odd outlier? is the experience on other countries different? I'm genouinly curious.
  • rsynnott 7y ago
    I think this stuff actually is pretty regional/local; participation rates by women are much better in some non-Anglosphere countries. Edit: It can also become weirdly specific; participation in computer science and physics remain quite low here (Ireland), say, but I believe most chemistry undergrads are now women.
    • 0815test 7y ago
      It's a bit puzzling/weird because as it turns out, participation rates in technical fields tend to be "better" in places where women are comparatively worse off, and vice versa. Many people think that these "better" participation rates don't actually reflect anything like a full equalization in underlying interest, and that can still be a problem for women in the longer run.
    • xondono 7y ago
      I was referring way more the prevalence of those type of comments through education. I don't think participation rates are very different than other countries. From my experience (I have a rather weird educational path, so I have anecdotal data on engineering, math & physics undergraduate courses). Engineering and physics have similar ratios around 10% to 20%, while maths is way higher around 50/50 (the rates for the classes I was taking were actually higher, but that's another story). Chemistry here also is mostly women. The only hypothesis that fits my (admittedly anecdotal) experience, is that there's quite a difference in the interests of men and women, and that the country differences in enrollment are more a symptom of how the curricula are structured. For example, Spain does not have CS degrees structured like in the anglosphere, so depending the subfield you intend to work on, you should go to engineering instead. Most of the women I met at engineering would have chosen a CS degree over engineering if there was one. I have seen stark differences too in physics, were the majority of women there wanted to pursue pure theoretical physics with pretty much none of them showing interest in applied physics.
• Tade0 7y ago
  By my SO's account statements from her parents like "it's okay you're bad at math - I was too" were much more damaging in the long run.
  • wvh 7y ago
    Well, that's probably what most people tell their children, male or female. I know I've heard that line a few times. It's sad how the love of parents trying to prevent disappointment seems to be a major factor in stopping kids from actually trying something hard.
• wvh 7y ago
  I agree with you until you bring up gender. Girls also talk about how boys are idiots. Women's remarks can also bring down men or uplift them. Boys also think they're not good enough. Where I'm from (North-West Europe), I can't say there's a black and white difference between boys' and girls' behaviour or perceived academic ability. It's just that (especially young) women seem more susceptible to social pressure and the need to fit in, especially with other women. Teens' dreams and ideas often get shot down by peers, parents and even teachers. I'm not defending bad behaviour; I just think that pointing at a few loudmouthed boys and claiming that there's the reason for the gap is pretty disingenuous. Certainly the majority of women I know would not give a lack of intelligence as the reason they didn't go to study CS.
  • areoform 7y ago
    As your comment is the strongest iteration of this line of thought (which seems to be shared by a lot of people). I'll reply to it and explain why. > I agree with you until you bring up gender. Girls also talk about how boys are idiots. Women's remarks can also bring down men or uplift them One is not like the other. Teenage female peer dynamics are heavily dominated by corumination and is directed heavily inwards. When girls bully other girls, they do it indirectly. It is more psychologically directed and intensely focused on gossip and disguised status seeking behavior. It is rarely directly confrontational, and I have rarely - if ever - heard girls talk about men's compentence in some general regard that way. It's more like, "that guys such an idiot. He said <> and <> to me. Can you believe that?" Teenage boys on the other hand are manifestly different. I am not an expert on male teenage behavior, but judging from the fact that the vast majority of teens sending epithets to other people online or on social media are overwhelmingly likely to be teenaged boys, I would suggest that the male pattern is aggressive and an overt dominance game. Women don't do well in that environment. Boys often do and say things that are bewildering for anyone socialized as female to interact with. > It's just that (especially young) women seem more susceptible to social pressure and the need to fit in, especially with other women. Yes, female social dynamics are heavily about inclusion and exclusion. A welcoming and safe environment matters a lot more to women than it does to men. > I just think that pointing at a few loudmouthed boys and claiming that there's the reason for the gap is pretty disingenuous I have not made that claim. I am just talking about my experience. Your mileage may vary.
• growlist 7y ago
  Men and boys are demonised and ridiculed daily all across our media, and education is in my experience biased towards males also. Teachers are mostly female, and I remember at school normal male behaviour being criticised, and a general attitude of 'girls work harder than boys', 'girls are better behaved than boys' etc. If you want some hard data to back this up, take a look at the stats about male/female university attendance in the UK. You'll see it's becoming ever more weighted towards women. I cannot browse the web or social media without being bombarded with pro-female propaganda. And yet it's women that are being discriminated against?! Bonkers.