7 ms·

> High density is incompatible with affordability Could you clarify this? There are countless affordable neighborhoods that are all apartments.

by raldi 7y ago

jelliclesfarm 7y ago
I have never seen a highly populous city be affordable. It becomes a pressure cooker of market forces with the initial subsidized affordable housing ending up costing more and resources being redistributed to the point of infrastructure failing leading to more taxes leading to more unaffordability. It’s a vicious cycle. Affordable houses pay less taxes than market rate. High density still absorb more infrastructure. Where one house used stand, if there are 10 apartments..it’s that many x 2 cars on the street. It’s almost that many more children in public schools. It’s that many more households consuming water, power and need for general services. But schools don’t multiply..fire stations and police stations don’t increase to cater to the increase in population. Roads are not built to take care of the traffic nor is public transport improved. More housing = more taxes. That’s why the govt encourages. Affordable housing actually fatten up the funds for the care and feeding of big Gov more because what they don’t offer in high per household tax, they make up in volume. Net net, govt gets more $$ and the public gets less services. These 20 and 5@ year old multi billion projects never translate because they never see the light of day as they get obsolete quickly. That’s why the Bay Area looks so run down and unaffordable housing and traffic woes only keep increasing and never finds solutions.
- raldi 7y ago
  NYC's median household income is $51k. Half get by on less.
  - jelliclesfarm 7y ago
    Bay Area isn’t NYC. We are earthquake country with dismal public transport. We are more people and more sprawl. And definitely more jobs. Not comparable. Do you think NYC is affordable for those earning 51k? Really?
    - raldi 7y ago
      The dismal public transport is what the proposal on the table will be taking aim at. What makes you think NYC is unaffordable to households making under $51k, and how do you explain the fact that half the populace is doing exactly that? What do earthquakes have to do with it? Half the megacities of Asia are in earthquake country.
      - jelliclesfarm 7y ago
        On NYC: NYC is affordable to them only with rent control. Most people don’t have cars due to its public transport network that we lack in the Bay Area. The city has entertainment, easy access so people don’t have to leave their boroughs..never mind the city. We have land in California and can provide housing IF we improve public transport. Sacramento takes money earmarked for public transport and channels it for affordable housing. It is a pattern of deception. On Asian mega cities with high density, I am going to assume that you have lived there as you brought it up. Is that the kind of standard of living you think affordable high density housing advocates want in California? I see that you are housing advocate and I assume high density as you are dedicated to building more housing stock in San Francisco. I have lived in high density Asian cities and have commuted at 20 km/hour. Which is what is happening in the Bay Area too. How many parts of Asia do you think are earthquake prone? Please name them and their population density. I would like to compare quality of life between them and the bay area.
        pertymcpert 7y ago
        Bay Area quality of life isn't great. Endless strip malls, hardly any culture vs Europe. It's pretty shit.
        jelliclesfarm 7y ago
        It is better than many other parts of the world tho’...I do agree that Europe wins in some respects. American comfort and quality of life does come from over consumption. We consume(and are wasteful too) at 350 million people more than the 1.3 billion Indians. So yea..there is that..but surely we can have a middle ground between wasteful sprawl and high density, bumper to bumper trafficker life style. Our local art gallery and indie coffee shops have closed down due to no foot traffic as home-office-home commute begins at 6.30 to 9,00 and then 2.00-7.30 pm. They use side streets and clog arterial infra city roads due to various traffic apps suggesting short cuts. The local mission that used to press olives every year from the olive trees in their property won’t do it anymore because they sold the land to build more condos. The community college wants to sell its land to build apartments and they aren’t even student housing. Everyone is in the speculative high density market rate housing game. Cities have no identity and they are nothing but bedroom communities where people come back to eat and sleep before getting up to go back to work again battling traffic. Are high density cities worth this zombie existence? That’s what Bay Area is becoming.. I hope it isn’t so!
- Keverw 7y ago
  Reminds me of the high-speed rail project. They got federal grants but repeatedly failed to comply with the agreement and missing deadlines. 1 billion dollars in funds were canceled, and the state might have to pay back 2.5 billion already paid to them. [1] I don't think California knows how to use any money they get ahold of. Some of the worst roads in the nation yet the highest gas taxes. People are leaving California in masses for places like Texas. California is one of the most moved out states. People are sick of high taxes and not being able to afford anything. Those taxes get passed down making everything else more expensive too like food and other needed things in life. I know someone who recently cashed out their retirement investments accounts a little earlier than planned. He mentioned that his advisor was chit chatting while waiting on the computer to process something, and if he would have lived in California it would have been a 10% tax just for California alone, not even counting the fed taxes. They don't live in California luckily as it would have been about $15,000 more in taxes they'd owe than where they currently are. While if they lived in Texas or Florida they'd save so much money since no state income tax, plus it's warmer and nicer too. Also some people retire and decide to live in an RV full-time exploring around the US so then South Dakota is a great choice too as no income tax either plus since you still need to be a resident somewhere to have a driver license and registration even if you don't own property anymore so they are a great state to set up a home base as they are friendly to full-time travelers. Some people's former states where they sold their lifelong homes won't let them stay being a resident because they are basically considered homeless even if they own an expensive RV like a diesel pusher, so they risk their license and registration being canceled if they don't change their domicile to a friendly state to travelers. If you own a $100,000 house you aren't homeless but if you live in a $250,000 or half a million dollar RV you are homeless according to most states. I guess with recognizing full-time RV living it increases South Dakota population count so it helps them get more federal funding and in return, they allow you to be considered a resident after spending one night at a hotel or campground while also renting a mailbox with a mail forwarding company. They even give you a new license the same day too, no waiting for one to be mailed, also no retesting either other than a eye test, walk in the next morning with the receipt for mailbox, hotel/campground, SSN card, birth cert and marriage license if your last name is different without even making an appointment then within a few minutes you are done. Then since full-timers will be mostly on vacation from South Dakota, they pay into the roads they hardly even use too. So another win-win for the state. Very small and efficient government up there. While if you move to California they make you retake the test again, and you have to wait weeks to even get an appointment while being fined for not changing it without 10 days of signing a lease or buying a house because they're all booked up for over 2 months in advance. People are getting sick and tired of California, parts of the midwest and the northeast so they are moving to the South. [2] Sadly some people can't really afford to move right now or have a family though but I think it's great people who can vote with their feet to try and better themselves are doing so. Not only for economic reasons people are leaving California. People are also feeling unsafe due to them harboring illegal aliens. Someone who had been deported 5 times, ended up in the San Francisco County Jail on a drug charge only to be released instead of being turned over to feds... Then after being released the man ended up killing a woman at a popular tourist spot. I could spend days talking about all the problems in California. California is a huge mess, and I think people who say otherwise are living in a bubble. However, I don't think people like to get into too much politics on here so will refrain from that, but probably enough bad with California I could write an entire book about. [1] https://www.npr.org/2019/05/16/724145472/trump-administration-cancels-nearly-1-billion-in-california-high-speed-rail-fund https://www.npr.org/2019/05/16/724145472/trump-administratio... [2] https://www.howmoneywalks.com/irs-tax-migration/ https://www.howmoneywalks.com/irs-tax-migration/ [3] https://thehill.com/opinion/criminal-justice/362940-sanctuary-city-policies-are-ruining-california-heres-why-i-left https://thehill.com/opinion/criminal-justice/362940-sanctuar... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Kate_Steinle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Kate_Steinle

> High density is incompatible with affordability Could you clarify this? There are countless affordable neighborhoods that are all apartments.

by raldi 7y ago

> High density is incompatible with affordability Could you clarify this? There are countless affordable neighborhoods that are all apartments.

jelliclesfarm 7y ago

I have never seen a highly populous city be affordable. It becomes a pressure cooker of market forces with the initial subsidized affordable housing ending up costing more and resources being redistributed to the point of infrastructure failing leading to more taxes leading to more unaffordability. It’s a vicious cycle. Affordable houses pay less taxes than market rate. High density still absorb more infrastructure. Where one house used stand, if there are 10 apartments..it’s that many x 2 cars on the street. It’s almost that many more children in public schools. It’s that many more households consuming water, power and need for general services. But schools don’t multiply..fire stations and police stations don’t increase to cater to the increase in population. Roads are not built to take care of the traffic nor is public transport improved. More housing = more taxes. That’s why the govt encourages. Affordable housing actually fatten up the funds for the care and feeding of big Gov more because what they don’t offer in high per household tax, they make up in volume. Net net, govt gets more $$ and the public gets less services. These 20 and 5@ year old multi billion projects never translate because they never see the light of day as they get obsolete quickly. That’s why the Bay Area looks so run down and unaffordable housing and traffic woes only keep increasing and never finds solutions.

raldi 7y ago
NYC's median household income is $51k. Half get by on less.
- jelliclesfarm 7y ago
  Bay Area isn’t NYC. We are earthquake country with dismal public transport. We are more people and more sprawl. And definitely more jobs. Not comparable. Do you think NYC is affordable for those earning 51k? Really?
  - raldi 7y ago
    The dismal public transport is what the proposal on the table will be taking aim at. What makes you think NYC is unaffordable to households making under $51k, and how do you explain the fact that half the populace is doing exactly that? What do earthquakes have to do with it? Half the megacities of Asia are in earthquake country.
    - jelliclesfarm 7y ago
      On NYC: NYC is affordable to them only with rent control. Most people don’t have cars due to its public transport network that we lack in the Bay Area. The city has entertainment, easy access so people don’t have to leave their boroughs..never mind the city. We have land in California and can provide housing IF we improve public transport. Sacramento takes money earmarked for public transport and channels it for affordable housing. It is a pattern of deception. On Asian mega cities with high density, I am going to assume that you have lived there as you brought it up. Is that the kind of standard of living you think affordable high density housing advocates want in California? I see that you are housing advocate and I assume high density as you are dedicated to building more housing stock in San Francisco. I have lived in high density Asian cities and have commuted at 20 km/hour. Which is what is happening in the Bay Area too. How many parts of Asia do you think are earthquake prone? Please name them and their population density. I would like to compare quality of life between them and the bay area.
      - pertymcpert 7y ago
        Bay Area quality of life isn't great. Endless strip malls, hardly any culture vs Europe. It's pretty shit.
        jelliclesfarm 7y ago
        It is better than many other parts of the world tho’...I do agree that Europe wins in some respects. American comfort and quality of life does come from over consumption. We consume(and are wasteful too) at 350 million people more than the 1.3 billion Indians. So yea..there is that..but surely we can have a middle ground between wasteful sprawl and high density, bumper to bumper trafficker life style. Our local art gallery and indie coffee shops have closed down due to no foot traffic as home-office-home commute begins at 6.30 to 9,00 and then 2.00-7.30 pm. They use side streets and clog arterial infra city roads due to various traffic apps suggesting short cuts. The local mission that used to press olives every year from the olive trees in their property won’t do it anymore because they sold the land to build more condos. The community college wants to sell its land to build apartments and they aren’t even student housing. Everyone is in the speculative high density market rate housing game. Cities have no identity and they are nothing but bedroom communities where people come back to eat and sleep before getting up to go back to work again battling traffic. Are high density cities worth this zombie existence? That’s what Bay Area is becoming.. I hope it isn’t so!
Keverw 7y ago
Reminds me of the high-speed rail project. They got federal grants but repeatedly failed to comply with the agreement and missing deadlines. 1 billion dollars in funds were canceled, and the state might have to pay back 2.5 billion already paid to them. [1] I don't think California knows how to use any money they get ahold of. Some of the worst roads in the nation yet the highest gas taxes. People are leaving California in masses for places like Texas. California is one of the most moved out states. People are sick of high taxes and not being able to afford anything. Those taxes get passed down making everything else more expensive too like food and other needed things in life. I know someone who recently cashed out their retirement investments accounts a little earlier than planned. He mentioned that his advisor was chit chatting while waiting on the computer to process something, and if he would have lived in California it would have been a 10% tax just for California alone, not even counting the fed taxes. They don't live in California luckily as it would have been about $15,000 more in taxes they'd owe than where they currently are. While if they lived in Texas or Florida they'd save so much money since no state income tax, plus it's warmer and nicer too. Also some people retire and decide to live in an RV full-time exploring around the US so then South Dakota is a great choice too as no income tax either plus since you still need to be a resident somewhere to have a driver license and registration even if you don't own property anymore so they are a great state to set up a home base as they are friendly to full-time travelers. Some people's former states where they sold their lifelong homes won't let them stay being a resident because they are basically considered homeless even if they own an expensive RV like a diesel pusher, so they risk their license and registration being canceled if they don't change their domicile to a friendly state to travelers. If you own a $100,000 house you aren't homeless but if you live in a $250,000 or half a million dollar RV you are homeless according to most states. I guess with recognizing full-time RV living it increases South Dakota population count so it helps them get more federal funding and in return, they allow you to be considered a resident after spending one night at a hotel or campground while also renting a mailbox with a mail forwarding company. They even give you a new license the same day too, no waiting for one to be mailed, also no retesting either other than a eye test, walk in the next morning with the receipt for mailbox, hotel/campground, SSN card, birth cert and marriage license if your last name is different without even making an appointment then within a few minutes you are done. Then since full-timers will be mostly on vacation from South Dakota, they pay into the roads they hardly even use too. So another win-win for the state. Very small and efficient government up there. While if you move to California they make you retake the test again, and you have to wait weeks to even get an appointment while being fined for not changing it without 10 days of signing a lease or buying a house because they're all booked up for over 2 months in advance. People are getting sick and tired of California, parts of the midwest and the northeast so they are moving to the South. [2] Sadly some people can't really afford to move right now or have a family though but I think it's great people who can vote with their feet to try and better themselves are doing so. Not only for economic reasons people are leaving California. People are also feeling unsafe due to them harboring illegal aliens. Someone who had been deported 5 times, ended up in the San Francisco County Jail on a drug charge only to be released instead of being turned over to feds... Then after being released the man ended up killing a woman at a popular tourist spot. I could spend days talking about all the problems in California. California is a huge mess, and I think people who say otherwise are living in a bubble. However, I don't think people like to get into too much politics on here so will refrain from that, but probably enough bad with California I could write an entire book about. [1] https://www.npr.org/2019/05/16/724145472/trump-administration-cancels-nearly-1-billion-in-california-high-speed-rail-fund https://www.npr.org/2019/05/16/724145472/trump-administratio... [2] https://www.howmoneywalks.com/irs-tax-migration/ https://www.howmoneywalks.com/irs-tax-migration/ [3] https://thehill.com/opinion/criminal-justice/362940-sanctuary-city-policies-are-ruining-california-heres-why-i-left https://thehill.com/opinion/criminal-justice/362940-sanctuar... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Kate_Steinle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_of_Kate_Steinle